[meteorite-list] AD - Auctions/Thoughts

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:02:09 -0500
Message-ID: <e51421551002261202r55497403t35649031536e829e_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Martin,

Sage words indeed and very true....unfortunately.

You said this ----->

"I know of only one international organisation of meteoritics:
The Meteoritical Society.
I would mean, that the Meteoritical Society is in charge to counteract that
fatal development. It is the most urgent and it is the most important
problem in the 200 years of modern meteoritics.
(To say it clear, also for such simple minded people like me: No meteorite
science without meteorites.)
I know that by their statutes, it is forbidden for MetSoc to act
politically.
But I think, especially the commission of ethics of MetSoc should give
recommendations, based on a more modern state of art and the data of the
last 25 years,
that such countries without restrictions like USA or Morocco shall stay open
and recommendations, how laws in countries with prohibition could be
modified, that a meaningful scientific work will become one day possible
again in these countries."

----------> I could not agree more. The Meteoritical Society opens
it's arms to laypeople, and I think it should be more proactive about
voicing these concerns that you have outlined. The numbers don't lie
and we can see where this this road is leading. This doesn't mean
that the MS has to be politically active, but it should demonstrate
that it is in the best interests of all to allow private parties to
participate in the field work of meteorites. Now that many have GPS,
digital cameras and laptops, amateurs can responsibly document all
finds and provide the provenance that science demands. Many
institutions and science have benefited from mutual exchange of
specimens, so is it terrible if as collector wants to have a small
specimen in their own cabinet? There are worse things that grown men
with money could be doing, and I think science, the museums,
universities, and governments should be thankful for the crazy
obsessive men who spend long hard hours in the field for little profit
- and not discourage them.

Best regards,

MikeG



On 2/26/10, Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Hi just found this,
>
> So here a late thought...
>
> I'd say - whether meteorites are found or whether meteorites continue to be
> found to that great extent like in the last 10-20 years,
> is not a question of the productive areas being depleted by searching
> activities,
>
> it is solely a political question.
>
>
> Meteorite finding requires: Time, manpower, money and skills.
> (and of course enthusiasm).
>
> Aside the Antarctic campaigns virtually no country and no university is able
> or willing to invest in these basic requirements.
>
> Until now that hadn't been necessary, as the meteorites were found and
> delivered to the countries and institutes by the private sector with a much
> greater efficiency seen the find rates, the quality of the finds and the
> costs for the public.
>
> This is now about being changed. More and more laws in more and more
> countries are installed to eliminate the private sector.
> But in the same time no public efforts are undertaken to replace the
> performance of the private sector.
>
> The consequences are evident.
> Everybody can easily proof the statistics.
> Australia stroke that path and had to hit the road then. Result of this
> decade: Less than 1 new find per year. A meteoritic output smaller than in
> the dawn of Australian meteoritics in the 1850ies. But the deserts there are
> full of meteorites. And there are so many people on that globe, which can
> find them, if they're only would be allowed to do so.
> Meteorite science in Australia is about becoming obsolete.
>
> In Oman, if the laws there would have been enforced more resolutely,
> we wouldn't have the wealth of Omani meteorites, we can enjoy today.
> (In fact we wouldn't have any else than old Ghubara, cause Oman became aware
> only of having meteorites in the desert, because the privateers found them
> there).
> And seen the population of meteorites regarding the types, suspicion arouse,
> that private hunter maybe found a better representation of the distribution
> of meteorites there.
>
> Similar, but more drastic case, was the EUROMET expedition to the Kem-Kem
> region in Sahara, where nothing was found (would have to look, 2 OCs or so),
> but only a short time after, there the NWA-rush started with the first
> hundredweights of meteorites from the Kem-Kem region, collected by locals.
>
> Libya - the find rates broke down to 2-3% of the years, the private hunters
> were active.
>
> Btw. also in Canada there is a slight regress in the number of fall
> recoveries.
>
> And of course we wouldn't have any Antarctic meteorites at all, if it
> wouldn't have been achieved in the 1970ies to find a legal status for them.
> Imagine, if they would have been regarded as natural resources (like
> obviously in some countries, where they are set under their mining acts),
> no country would have been allowed to collect them.
>
> The problem modern meteoritics suffers from, is,
> that on the one hand privateers recovered and opened up the most productive
> find areas,
> that they recover the new falls, that extremely more manpower for finding
> meteorites is available today, and that the finds are delivered at a cost
> factor 50 or 100 times lower than it would cost the taxpayer and the
> countries to generate a similar amount and quality of finds
>
> but that on the other hand inadequate laws are applied, which make it
> impossible for the private sector to continue with its important work,
> while - which would be the only alternative - the countries are not willing
> or able to pay for sufficient own efforts for meteorite recovery.
>
> Australia we have seen. Libya we saw. Russia we are about to see. Oman we
> would see. Algeria& NWA we will see.
> (Denmark, Poland, Switzerland - must be extreme happy countries without any
> other problems, that they even came to the idea to find legal regulations
> for their tiny handful meteorites of the last 1000 years... :-) And I cry
> for you, Argentiiiina....)
>
> And the really alarming thing is: If that legal development will continue,
> we won't fall back to the cosy 1940ies-1970ies,
> but we will be catapulted back to zero,
> because in the Krantz, Ward, Foote, Nininger times (those were the guys, who
> filled the museums and universities with meteorites, just like the modern
> dealers and hunters today - who have though the more interesting material
> and are much cheaper than their famous ancestors) such laws didn't exist.
>
> Three possibilities exist not to let World meteoritics die:
> 1) Cancel the laws.
> 2) Make laws with a fair incentive for finders.
> 3) Continue with such laws, but care for the funds to replace the private
> performance with official recovery efforts.
> 1 single team of 4-6 people for 3-4 weeks per years outside Antarctica is
> not enough. And if you take the costs of EUROMET and their non-Antarctic
> find rates, you will see, that this is the most expensive solution and will
> cost billions over the years.
>
> Seen from the points of view of the scientists and of the taxpayers,
> solution 1) - let's call that hypothesis polemically: "Men at work. Don't
> disturb." - is certainly the most promising.
>
> The concept to obtain meteorites by prohibiting or restricting private
> ownership is - with the historic exception of czarist Russia and India
> protecting their meteorites from the access of colonial England -
> a concept of the 1960ies.
> Although the experiences showed, that in these countries, where it was
> implemented, the outcome was disastrous and that it ended with the opposite
> results, which were initially intended,
> that concept runs unchanged like a red thread through the decades until to
> the newest prohibitive laws of the present.
> It is carried on by people, who are not aware of the history of meteoritics,
> nor the mechanisms how meteorites are and were always found.
>
> I know of only one international organisation of meteoritics:
> The Meteoritical Society.
>
> I would mean, that the Meteoritical Society is in charge to counteract that
> fatal development. It is the most urgent and it is the most important
> problem in the 200 years of modern meteoritics.
>
> (To say it clear, also for such simple minded people like me: No meteorite
> science without meteorites.)
>
> I know that by their statutes, it is forbidden for MetSoc to act
> politically.
> But I think, especially the commission of ethics of MetSoc should give
> recommendations, based on a more modern state of art and the data of the
> last 25 years,
> that such countries without restrictions like USA or Morocco shall stay open
> and recommendations, how laws in countries with prohibition could be
> modified, that a meaningful scientific work will become one day possible
> again in these countries.
>
> And if we don't do it now, we will loose all.
> And what will be lost - it will take generations to get it back once.
>
> Well - thoughts only. If they contain a kernel of truth, we'll see in 3-10
> years. (Hopefully rather 10 than 3, but....).
>
> Best!
> Martin
>
>
> PS: Mike, China... EUROMET was in the Mongolian part of Gobi. They found
> nothing. And I'm not sure whether Chinese meteorites fall under the same
> cultural relic act like their fossils. If so, then anyway they would be
> strrrrictly illegal. According this act - private ownership is in principle
> possible, but under very narrow circumstances,
> and private owner are not allowed to sell or to trade else than to Chinese
> institutions. The transport to foreign countries is strictly forbidden,
> which makes also the international exchange between scientific institutions
> very difficult.
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Galactic
> Stone & Ironworks
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. Februar 2010 19:40
> An: Adam Hupe
> Cc: Adam
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD - Auctions/Thoughts
>
> Hi Adam and List,
>
> I don't pretend to be an experienced or knowledgeable as you or some
> of the other veterans, but I have noticed some trends since I started
> out in the meteorite world three years ago. When I first started out,
> I could buy kilos of uNWA material for .05 cents a gram, and that
> included nice dark specimens that weren't covered in caliche. I'd buy
> a couple of kilos and I had a hard time letting most of the pieces go,
> because each kilo contained several stones that had relatively-fresh
> crust, thumbprints, and other desirable features. Now, if you can
> find a kilo for .05 cents a gram (without buying 100 kilos), you get a
> batch of heavily-weathered crap that is only fit for a rock tumbler.
>
> I've talked to several "old timers" and they all seem to agree that
> the Saharan situation is unique. There is not another Morocco waiting
> in the wings - when the offerings from the Sahara finally peter out,
> that's it. Don't expect China to open up the Gobi (which is covered
> in dark native rocks and would be a nightmare to search), and the
> world's other hot deserts are in countries that frown upon open
> exports of material - like Australia.
>
> The good news is, there is literally tons of uNWA material sitting in
> stockpiles and that material is going to keep the market stocked for a
> long time to come. The bad news is, the good prices are rapidly
> becoming a memory. Don't expect cheap deals when those stockpiles are
> opened up and distributed.
>
> I only wish I had taken out loans and got myself a dozen credit cards
> and maxxed them out on every nice uNWA I could find 3 years ago. Now
> I find myself unable to purchase the kind of material I like to
> collect because I simply can't afford it. When it comes to paying the
> electric bill, or buying a fresh dark crusted uNWA, I have to pay
> bills.
>
> I recently sold off 90% of my personal collection of over 100
> localities - to pay medical bills. I seriously doubt I will be able
> to replace many of those pieces because the replacements will cost
> several times what I paid originally.
>
> So Adam is speaking the truth - bid now and bid often. I would if I could.
>
> Best regards and happy huntings,
>
> MikeG
>
> http://www.galactic-stone.com
>
>
>
>
> On 2/23/10, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Dear List Members,
>>
>> I have many great auctions ending this afternoon. You will find the most
>> complete assemblage of rarities currently available on eBay. I will be
>> adding
>> more new items each week as my final inventory comes out of preparation.
> It
>> is
>> becoming increasingly difficult, if not impossible to replace this
> inventory
>> once it is sold so you may want to take advantage of some of these
> offerings
>> while the price is the lowest it has been in history.
>>
>> I imagine there will be a lot of complaints when Martian material is back
>> up to $1,000.00/gram when it can be had for a fraction of this price right
>> now.
>> The planetary find trend is way off and peaked a few years ago. It will
> not
>> be
>> long before the price catches up as the supply is depleted. Even
> Antarctica
>> is
>> running dry in this sector, something I thought was not possible just a
> few
>> years ago. Although Northwest Africa has handily overtaken Antarctica in
>> planetary finds, I thought that the long-term trend was in Antarctica's
>> favor
>> but this does not seem to be the case any more. I always thought that the
>> tortoise beat the hare!
>>
>>
>> I wonder what the next plateau will be once these places have been swept
>> clean?
>>
>>
>>
>> All Auctions Can Be Found At This link:
>>
> http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/raremeteorites!_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_
> mdoZ
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank
>> you for looking and if you are bidding, good luck.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>> Adam
>> Hupe
>> The Hupe Collection
>> Team LunarRock
>> IMCA 2185
>> raremeteorites at yahoo.com
>> ______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Gilmer
> http://www.galactic-stone.com
> http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites
http://www.galactic-stone.com
http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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Received on Fri 26 Feb 2010 03:02:09 PM PST