[meteorite-list] By Popular Demand................

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:09:45 +0200
Message-ID: <018d01c89e6b$7c7fd1e0$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Fully agree,

with NWA-material, the initial point for a collector is the entry in the
Bulletin - and easy traceable it is for him, as the main mass holder is
given there.

Best!
martin

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Adam
Hupe
Gesendet: Montag, 14. April 2008 20:44
An: Adam
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] By Popular Demand................

Hi Martin and List,

First of all, my brother, Greg had nothing to do with
the acquisition on Northwest Africa 5000. Second, I
reported how it was brought into possession in way of
the entry in the Meteoritical Bulletin and my
announcement.

These days, I think proving laboratory provenance is
far more important when dealing with meteorites from
Northwest Africa than the original sources they came
from. After all, this the reason behind the NWA
moniker. If a dealer cannot prove he had his material
tested in a Nom Com approved facility and is too lazy
to get his own NWA nomenclature, it is time to walk
away because you do not know what you are getting no
matter how convincing the material may look.

I cannot count how many times I have been fooled on
appearance alone in the field when purchasing
decisions are made without the aid of a laboratory.
This is part of the risk that has to be taken in order
not to miss out on some fantastic stones. Collectors
never see this part of the action because wrongly
identified material never makes it market when
professionals are involved.

In my opinion, provenance with material from Northwest
Africa starts with the party who initially had it
characterized in a laboratory and made it official.

Best Regards,

Adam




that --- Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
wrote:

> Dear me!
>
> Alex!
> What else could we burden to the "dealers"?
>
> Uncle, isn't it enough that the hunters and dealers
> are working each for
> three men, are risking their money, their health and
> their time, to organize
> the rarest matter on Earth for the collectors in a
> volume and variety like
> never before in history, and at since 8 years
> calamitous retail prices? That
> they trade out from museums and collections the most
> desirable historics for
> you? That their goods already underlie the strictest
> controls of all
> collectibles in existence? That they stuff the labs
> with the most exciting
> rocks of the solar systems for free, that they wait
> patiently until each
> rock is examined and classified, that they spend
> those weeks where they are
> at home, in endless cutting and preparing sessions,
> that they make the
> marketing, bookkeeping, the maintenance of the hobby
> in growing new
> collectors, in popularizing meteorite in the media,
> in swallowing
> permanently to be called looters, poachers ect, by
> some, who find no other
> way to gain profile, but on the other are profiting
> from that work like no
> others, and that they are regarded in view of that
> enormous work by all
> dealers in similar branches as absolute fools?
>
> Now they should even disclose their sources, for
> some of the collectors
> buying there - that?s simply too much. Haven't you
> bought recently a pair of
> shoes?
> Did you ask the shop manager to come and to tell
> you, where he had purchased
> the shoes and at which price? Why would that an
> absurd thought?
>
> Uncle, if for a collector a dealer hasn't the
> authority, the reliability and
> not the respect, that he can trust him, that the
> offered meteorite is
> exactly that, what the dealer is stating,
> then he simply shouldn't buy that piece!
> In a few years, the labels of those, which now
> should be forced to publish
> all their sources, will be regarded as proof of
> authenticity like the labels
> of your David New.
>
> A dealer always will publish the label, if it's from
> a prominent collection,
> because it adds value, and he will tell to his
> friends - that sand box is
> indeed so small that sellers and buyers, both
> collectors btw., often have a
> friendly relationship - also the more sensible
> information about the
> provenance, as well as to his customers in whose he
> trusts.
>
> But that has to be left solely to the seller! Now to
> build up a pressure,
> that everyone has kindly to publish his sources, is
> wrong.
> Hi Greg, where do you have your NWA 5000 from?
> Mike, I can't find, on your hp, the source of your
> Martians...
>
> Uncle, "fool" is a hard word, "enthusiast" sounds
> more proper.
> Those who are dealing meteorites are driven by their
> enthusiasms, there
> exist a thousand easier ways to earn one's bread and
> butter.
>
> And I really can't understand, where suddenly all
> those suspicions are
> coming from, the fears to be burnt, and the
> imagination it would be normal,
> that sellers wouldn't have nothing else in mind,
> than to exploit and to
> cheat their collectors. Hey folks, we are meteorite
> collectors and not on a
> cattle-market in Tirana!!!
>
> It never was like this, the meteorite-scene was
> always based on a respectful
> and friendly acquaintance in a trust- and respectful
> atmosphere.
> Last but not least because it was and it is so
> small, handy and
> straightforward.
>
> Shall one or two single shady amateurs like an Evans
> now be enough, to cast
> doubts on all that?
>
> Honestly, that isn't my perception of meteorite
> collecting & trading, what
> for an image seems to be drawn here.
> (And almost I wrote, that these, who think, that
> collecting meteorites would
> be so dangerous and that the scene would be so full
> of dishonest people,
> that they are simply in the - for them - wrong field
> of collecting).
>
> I think a campaign is necessary, before some sellers
> decide to leave:
>
> Love your sellers!
>
> We need buttons, caps, coffee mugs - who will bake a
> cake?
>
> Sometimes I ask myself...is it only me...??
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> Im Auftrag von
> Alexander Seidel
> Gesendet: Montag, 14. April 2008 15:46
> An: Impactika at aol.com;
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] By Popular
> Demand................
>
> > Now lets see which one of my "Colleagues" will
> follow suit and publish
> > his sources too.
>
> Probably not many will do, as long as they are more
> or less at the dealer?s
> end of the line. It is all a matter of perspective.
> While I personally think
> this is a very good idea, and would encourage you to
> continue this way, I am
> looking at it from the viewpoint of a private
> collector (!) only, and not
> from the viewpoint of a dealer or part-time-dealer.
> There is no disadvantage
> for a collector to know about the provenance of a
> specimen - just the
> opposite is true. Then again it may be a bit more
> complicated from a
> dealer?s perspective, as Martin and Matt have
> already pointed out with their
> arguments. Time will tell...
>
> [P.S.: will you publish sources for your thin
> section list, too, Anne?]
>
> Best regards,
> Alex
> Berlin/Germany
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Received on Mon 14 Apr 2008 04:09:45 PM PDT