[meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body

From: ensoramanda <ensoramanda_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:34:37 +0100
Message-ID: <472119FD.4020204_at_ntlworld.com>

Hi Jerry,

According to this link...S class asteroids....

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/lodranite.html

Grahm Ensor

Jerry wrote:

> So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on
> the distinction between Lord. and Acopl.
> If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different
> depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been
> identified as the source for these?
> Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little
> behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer].
> Jerry Flaherty
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zelimir Gabelica"
> <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>
> To: "drtanuki" <drtanuki at yahoo.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; "Martin Altmann"
> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>; "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at htn.net>
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
>
>
> Yes, Dirk, many thanks.
>
> I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our
> good
> friend Blaine in mid 2006.
> I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what
> Blaine
> recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at
> least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown
> champagne in
> the frig.
> Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been
> wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when
> champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway.
>
> Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my
> collection catalog:
>
>
> NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50%
> crust,
> 2.01g
> Description:
> 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but
> recently
> reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size > 045 mm
> (here:
> 0.6 to 0.7 mm).
> Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: 1 at 3,467 g. BR 06/517
>
> I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former
> acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become
> lodranites in
> future.
>
> More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June
> 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some
> extra
> beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And
> perhaps
> a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite!
>
> Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more
> scarce than lodranites, eh ?
>
> Best,
>
> Zelimir
>
> A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a ?crit :
>
>> Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List,
>>
>> Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification
>> of NWA 2871:
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> "...it seems that there was an error in the original
>> classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and
>> Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as)
>> are pretty much chemically and isotopically
>> indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain
>> size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain
>> size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large
>> average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper
>> origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871)
>> has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error
>> came in that the researchers that did the initial
>> report on this stone thought that the grain size
>> boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm."
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>
>> So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical
>> analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite,
>> correction of classification should be forth-coming.
>>
>> Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir!
>>
>> My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments:
>>
>> .....Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian
>> classification numbers and pairing that will be done
>> after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians.
>> In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource
>> to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a
>> separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair
>> the things then assign one official number all at the
>> same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off
>> extra material that you cannot sell without a number
>> so that someone else is left to have it classified
>> again with an additional NWA #.
>> I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is
>> purely my opinion that number games need to cease and
>> that priority should be given to supporting the
>> scientists to get proper information, so that timely
>> classification and recording in the MetBull can be
>> completed within months and not years.
>> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- Greg Hupe <gmhupe at htn.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Martin, Zelimir and List,
>> >
>> > Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new
>> > classification is appreciated by
>> > all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the
>> > Brecciated Lodranite I have, is
>> > not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs
>> > you have put together.
>> > First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated.
>> >
>> > A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted
>> > for Andi:
>> > 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg
>> > 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg
>> >
>> > NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to
>> > the large ACAP
>> > 'Lodranite?' grouping):
>> > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg
>> > Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, "The modal
>> > abundance of metal (+
>> > limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE
>> > imaging on a large polished
>> > slice is 5 vol.%."
>> >
>> > I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU
>> > re-examine all of the
>> > ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study,
>> > this would truly be the
>> > best way to determine pairings and if they are
>> > lodranites.
>> >
>> > I hope this helps a little.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Greg
>> >
>> > ====================
>> > Greg Hupe
>> > The Hupe Collection
>> > NaturesVault (eBay)
>> > gmhupe at htn.net
>> > www.LunarRock.com
>> > IMCA 3163
>> > ====================
>> > Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>> > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>> > To: "'Zelimir Gabelica'" <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>;
>> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
>> > confusion
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Zelimir,
>> >
>> > that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites
>> > (yippie) belong together, we
>> > reconstructed all together here on the list a while
>> > back, guess 1-2 years
>> > ago.
>> > (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared
>> > to the very few
>> > Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find
>> > stats, that there
>> > suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from
>> > Sahara).
>> >
>> > Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should
>> > try to set the pieces
>> > of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully
>> > without animosities, as
>> > the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would
>> > profit all.
>> > As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low
>> > shock level and weathering
>> > degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often
>> > appeared within a shorter time
>> > frame from desert paradise.
>> >
>> >
>> > NWA 2656 Oakes. Bulletin: has 356g, broken from
>> > a larger mass of 7.5kg
>> >
>> > NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g
>> > Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the
>> > owners from the same
>> > 7.5kg mass.
>> >
>> > NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired
>> > with NWA 2656
>> >
>> > NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired
>> > with NWA 2656
>> >
>> > NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA
>> > 2656,
>> > according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass.
>> >
>> > NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be
>> > paired with NWA 2656
>> >
>> > NWA 2775 Reed&Turecki 222g nothing known, some say
>> > it's the same, some not.
>> >
>> > NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with
>> > NWA 2627
>> > There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as
>> > 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we
>> > have some slices left, it should be no problem to
>> > get it fixed.
>> >
>> > NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike
>> > help!
>> >
>> >
>> > Hence so far, I guess we can say:
>> >
>> > Officially paired are:
>> > NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871
>> > type specimens of all at
>> > NAU (Bunch,Wittke)
>> >
>> > NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal
>> > to check the pairing,
>> > because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base.
>> > Owner says probably
>> > paired.
>> >
>> > NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so
>> > a pairing, if exist,
>> > could be established there.
>> > Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as
>> > Turecki went into hiding,
>> > leaving many dealers unpaid.
>> >
>> > NWA 2627 also at NAU, so...
>> >
>> > NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are
>> > in Berlin, but we will
>> > take care, that it gets officialized.
>> >
>> > Others:
>> >
>> > NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they
>> > are much more fresh and
>> > fine-grained.
>> >
>> > NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1
>> > -------
>> >
>> > Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main
>> > pairing group, where I
>> > don't know nothing about, respectively others will
>> > know more and better:
>> >
>> > NWA 725 Fectay 3824g
>> > NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS)
>> > NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg)
>> > NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg)
>> > NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS)
>> >
>> > Four of the holders are here on the list, so please
>> > help all together!
>> >
>> > The data I took from the Bulletin database, the
>> > other information from the
>> > discussion last year, so please, no choler
>> > necessary, we all only want to
>> > pot Humpty together again and to clear the number
>> > mess. (Uhh if one thinks,
>> > that the new Martians now around will get almost a
>> > dozen numbers...).
>> > And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will
>> > have been compared and
>> > com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be
>> > added to the Bulletins.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> > Martin
>> >
>> >
>> > PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite,
>> > you must have mixed
>> > something up. It's an L6, still under classification
>> > and not ready yet.
>> >
>> > -----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
>> > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
>> > Im Auftrag von Zelimir
>> > Gabelica
>> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 10:19
>> > An: Martin Altmann; 'drtanuki';
>> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > Betreff: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
>> > confusion
>> >
>> > Hi Martin, all
>> >
>> > In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399
>> > (considered as Acapulcoite as
>> > the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan
>> > Ralew) was paired to
>> > NWA 2627.
>> > So another new Lodranite ?
>> > I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ?
>> > My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and
>> > other) should be
>> > re-examined to confirm their new classification as
>> > Lodranites.
>> >
>> > I stay tuned....and am ready to open 3 bottles,
>> > should my 3 little samples
>> > of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA
>> > 2714 (2.38 g full slice
>> > from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice
>> > from Stefan) become
>> > Lodranites.
>> >
>> > Now let's go into more details regarding these 3
>> > samples, all classified as
>> > acapulcoites at the time (2006).
>> > My labels are so far differentiating them in terms
>> > of "origin" and W
>> > (weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed
>> > poor criteria.
>> > Here is what I can read:
>> >
>> > NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in
>> > Morocco, 2003
>> > NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in "Sahara", 2004
>> > NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found
>> > ?) in Algeria, 2003
>> >
>> > To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in
>> > 2006 a 32.16 g full
>> > crusted slice of an "unclassified ordinary
>> > chondrite", brecciated, found in
>> > "Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and
>> > still is ?) "under
>> > study". Its tkw was 1050 g....
>> >
>> > In a previous note, Stefan stated that this
>> > meteorite was "NWA 2714-likely
>> > paired".
>> >
>> > If this is so, then literature said that NWA 2714
>> > (acapulcoite) was paired
>> > with other acapulcoites NWA 1052 (22g), NWA 1054 (86
>> > g), NWA (2656 + 2871)
>> > (about 7.5 kg!), NWA 2699 (213 g) and NWA 2989 (77
>> > g).
>> > The combined tkw at that time was therefore over
>> > 10.858 kg.
>> > However, Stefan suspected this new meteorite could
>> > be different and sent a
>> > new "provisoonal at the time) NWA number: 4399!
>> >
>> > Martin, look at these numbers. Some are mentioned in
>> > your post, some other
>> > not....
>> >
>> > Question: what is true from the above, regarding
>> > pairings ? Are there less
>> > ? more ?
>> >
>> > This comforts me that, bacause of the relatively
>> > rare types that are
>> > involved (acapulcoites, lodranites), all these
>> > meteorites should really be
>> > studied separately again and reclassified, hopefully
>> > by the same group. If
>> > so, it would probably take a looong time
>> >
>> > Glad to read anyone's comments.
>> > In between, beware of "wild classifications" and
>> > some potential
>> > unscrupulous dealer's speculations in their near
>> > future offerings !
>> >
>> > Zelimir
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A 18:44 24/10/2007 +0200, Martin Altmann a ?crit :
>> > >Nevertheless, that mail could have been send three
>> > times,
>> > >cause it's delighting news for many more
>> > collectors,
>> > >wasn't NWA 2871 that ACAP with especially many
>> > pairings?
>> > >Can we carry them together her?
>> > >
>> > >NWA 2656
>> > >NWA 2699
>> > >NWA 2714
>> > >NWA 2866
>> > >NWA 2871
>> > >NWA 2989
>> > >NWA 4399
>> > >Which else?
>> > >
>> > >So I guess quite a lot of collectors can open a
>> > bottle today!
>> > >Best!
>> > >Martin
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >-----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
>> > >Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> >[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
>> > Im Auftrag von
>> > drtanuki
>> > >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2007 18:29
>> > >An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; dirk ross
>> > >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD NWA2871
>> > reclassified now officially
>> > >aLodranite --additional info for contact
>> > >
>> > >Sorry this message bounced.
>> > >
>> > > > Dear List,
>> > > > Sorry, I forgot to add Blaine`s contact
>> > > > information
>> > > > when I posted his sales ad for the NWA2871
>> > Lodranite
>> > > > super special offer. Much has sold so do wait
>> > to
>> > > > buy.
>> > > >
>> > > > His email works sometimes (when it gets
>> > checked):
>> > > >
>> > > > Blaine Reed <brmeteorites at yahoo.com>
>> > > >
>> > > > Best is his telephone/fax: 1-970-874-1487
>> > > > (Colorado
>> > > > time)
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you! If you cannot reach him, please
>> > email me
>> > > > for prices and availability. Thank you.
>> > > > Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > > drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi List,
>> > > > > If anyone missed out on buying NWA2871 you
>> > had
>> > > > > better buy it now before the price is beyond
>> > your
>> > > > > reach.
>> > > > > Contact Blaine Reed or myself and place your
>> > > > > orders
>> > > > > for a once-in-a-lifetime chance to own a
>> > Lodranite
>> > > > > at
>> > > > > a reasonable price.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>> > > > >
>> > > > > www.MeteoritesJapan.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > > www.InsekiJapan.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > __________________________________________________
>> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
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>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> > >
>> > >______________________________________________
>> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> > Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
>> > Universit?Ede Haute Alsace
>> > ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
>> > 3, Rue A. Werner,
>> > F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
>> > Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
>> > Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________
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>> >
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>> >
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>> >
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>>
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>
>
> Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
> Universit? de Haute Alsace
> ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
> 3, Rue A. Werner,
> F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
> Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
> Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>
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Received on Thu 25 Oct 2007 06:34:37 PM PDT