[meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body

From: Jerry <grf2_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:45:37 -0400
Message-ID: <A44D232F8AAC42BB82627ED35F418FF2_at_Notebook>

Thanks Graham for the quick response.
Jerry Flaherty
----- Original Message -----
From: "ensoramanda" <ensoramanda at ntlworld.com>
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion/parent body


> Hi Jerry,
>
> According to this link...S class asteroids....
>
> http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/L/lodranite.html
>
> Grahm Ensor
>
> Jerry wrote:
>
>> So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on
>> the distinction between Lord. and Acopl.
>> If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different
>> depth, analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been
>> identified as the source for these?
>> Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little
>> behind in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer].
>> Jerry Flaherty
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zelimir Gabelica"
>> <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>
>> To: "drtanuki" <drtanuki at yahoo.com>;
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; "Martin Altmann"
>> <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>; "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at htn.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion
>>
>>
>> Yes, Dirk, many thanks.
>>
>> I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our
>> good
>> friend Blaine in mid 2006.
>> I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what
>> Blaine
>> recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at
>> least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown
>> champagne in
>> the frig.
>> Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been
>> wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when
>> champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway.
>>
>> Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my
>> collection catalog:
>>
>>
>> NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50%
>> crust,
>> 2.01g
>> Description:
>> 18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but
>> recently
>> reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size > 045 mm
>> (here:
>> 0.6 to 0.7 mm).
>> Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: 1 at 3,467 g. BR 06/517
>>
>> I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former
>> acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become
>> lodranites in
>> future.
>>
>> More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June
>> 2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some
>> extra
>> beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And
>> perhaps
>> a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite!
>>
>> Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more
>> scarce than lodranites, eh ?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Zelimir
>>
>> A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a ?crit :
>>
>>> Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List,
>>>
>>> Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification
>>> of NWA 2871:
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> "...it seems that there was an error in the original
>>> classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and
>>> Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as)
>>> are pretty much chemically and isotopically
>>> indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain
>>> size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain
>>> size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large
>>> average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper
>>> origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871)
>>> has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error
>>> came in that the researchers that did the initial
>>> report on this stone thought that the grain size
>>> boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm."
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical
>>> analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite,
>>> correction of classification should be forth-coming.
>>>
>>> Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir!
>>>
>>> My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments:
>>>
>>> .....Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian
>>> classification numbers and pairing that will be done
>>> after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians.
>>> In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource
>>> to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a
>>> separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair
>>> the things then assign one official number all at the
>>> same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off
>>> extra material that you cannot sell without a number
>>> so that someone else is left to have it classified
>>> again with an additional NWA #.
>>> I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is
>>> purely my opinion that number games need to cease and
>>> that priority should be given to supporting the
>>> scientists to get proper information, so that timely
>>> classification and recording in the MetBull can be
>>> completed within months and not years.
>>> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --- Greg Hupe <gmhupe at htn.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hello Martin, Zelimir and List,
>>> >
>>> > Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new
>>> > classification is appreciated by
>>> > all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the
>>> > Brecciated Lodranite I have, is
>>> > not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs
>>> > you have put together.
>>> > First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated.
>>> >
>>> > A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted
>>> > for Andi:
>>> > 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg
>>> > 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg
>>> >
>>> > NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to
>>> > the large ACAP
>>> > 'Lodranite?' grouping):
>>> > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg
>>> > Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, "The modal
>>> > abundance of metal (+
>>> > limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE
>>> > imaging on a large polished
>>> > slice is 5 vol.%."
>>> >
>>> > I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU
>>> > re-examine all of the
>>> > ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study,
>>> > this would truly be the
>>> > best way to determine pairings and if they are
>>> > lodranites.
>>> >
>>> > I hope this helps a little.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> > Greg
>>> >
>>> > ====================
>>> > Greg Hupe
>>> > The Hupe Collection
>>> > NaturesVault (eBay)
>>> > gmhupe at htn.net
>>> > www.LunarRock.com
>>> > IMCA 3163
>>> > ====================
>>> > Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>>> > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
>>> > To: "'Zelimir Gabelica'" <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>;
>>> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
>>> > confusion
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi Zelimir,
>>> >
>>> > that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites
>>> > (yippie) belong together, we
>>> > reconstructed all together here on the list a while
>>> > back, guess 1-2 years
>>> > ago.
>>> > (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared
>>> > to the very few
>>> > Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find
>>> > stats, that there
>>> > suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from
>>> > Sahara).
>>> >
>>> > Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should
>>> > try to set the pieces
>>> > of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully
>>> > without animosities, as
>>> > the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would
>>> > profit all.
>>> > As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low
>>> > shock level and weathering
>>> > degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often
>>> > appeared within a shorter time
>>> > frame from desert paradise.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2656 Oakes. Bulletin: has 356g, broken from
>>> > a larger mass of 7.5kg
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g
>>> > Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the
>>> > owners from the same
>>> > 7.5kg mass.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired
>>> > with NWA 2656
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired
>>> > with NWA 2656
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA
>>> > 2656,
>>> > according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be
>>> > paired with NWA 2656
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2775 Reed&Turecki 222g nothing known, some say
>>> > it's the same, some not.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with
>>> > NWA 2627
>>> > There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as
>>> > 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we
>>> > have some slices left, it should be no problem to
>>> > get it fixed.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike
>>> > help!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hence so far, I guess we can say:
>>> >
>>> > Officially paired are:
>>> > NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871
>>> > type specimens of all at
>>> > NAU (Bunch,Wittke)
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal
>>> > to check the pairing,
>>> > because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base.
>>> > Owner says probably
>>> > paired.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so
>>> > a pairing, if exist,
>>> > could be established there.
>>> > Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as
>>> > Turecki went into hiding,
>>> > leaving many dealers unpaid.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2627 also at NAU, so...
>>> >
>>> > NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are
>>> > in Berlin, but we will
>>> > take care, that it gets officialized.
>>> >
>>> > Others:
>>> >
>>> > NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they
>>> > are much more fresh and
>>> > fine-grained.
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1
>>> > -------
>>> >
>>> > Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main
>>> > pairing group, where I
>>> > don't know nothing about, respectively others will
>>> > know more and better:
>>> >
>>> > NWA 725 Fectay 3824g
>>> > NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS)
>>> > NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg)
>>> > NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg)
>>> > NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS)
>>> >
>>> > Four of the holders are here on the list, so please
>>> > help all together!
>>> >
>>> > The data I took from the Bulletin database, the
>>> > other information from the
>>> > discussion last year, so please, no choler
>>> > necessary, we all only want to
>>> > pot Humpty together again and to clear the number
>>> > mess. (Uhh if one thinks,
>>> > that the new Martians now around will get almost a
>>> > dozen numbers...).
>>> > And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will
>>> > have been compared and
>>> > com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be
>>> > added to the Bulletins.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers!
>>> > Martin
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite,
>>> > you must have mixed
>>> > something up. It's an L6, still under classification
>>> > and not ready yet.
>>> >
>>> > -----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
>>> > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
>>> > Im Auftrag von Zelimir
>>> > Gabelica
>>> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 10:19
>>> > An: Martin Altmann; 'drtanuki';
>>> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> > Betreff: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
>>> > confusion
>>> >
>>> > Hi Martin, all
>>> >
>>> > In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399
>>> > (considered as Acapulcoite as
>>> > the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan
>>> > Ralew) was paired to
>>> > NWA 2627.
>>> > So another new Lodranite ?
>>> > I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ?
>>> > My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and
>>> > other) should be
>>> > re-examined to confirm their new classification as
>>> > Lodranites.
>>> >
>>> > I stay tuned....and am ready to open 3 bottles,
>>> > should my 3 little samples
>>> > of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA
>>> > 2714 (2.38 g full slice
>>> > from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice
>>> > from Stefan) become
>>> > Lodranites.
>>> >
>>> > Now let's go into more details regarding these 3
>>> > samples, all classified as
>>> > acapulcoites at the time (2006).
>>> > My labels are so far differentiating them in terms
>>> > of "origin" and W
>>> > (weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed
>>> > poor criteria.
>>> > Here is what I can read:
>>> >
>>> > NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in
>>> > Morocco, 2003
>>> > NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in "Sahara", 2004
>>> > NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found
>>> > ?) in Algeria, 2003
>>> >
>>> > To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in
>>> > 2006 a 32.16 g full
>>> > crusted slice of an "unclassified ordinary
>>> > chondrite", brecciated, found in
>>> > "Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and
>>> > still is ?) "under
>>> > study". Its tkw was 1050 g....
>>> >
>>> > In a previous note, Stefan stated that this
>>> > meteorite was "NWA 2714-likely
>>> > paired".
>>> >
>>> > If this is so, then literature said that NWA 2714
>>> > (acapulcoite) was paired
>>> > with other acapulcoites NWA 1052 (22g), NWA 1054 (86
>>> > g), NWA (2656 + 2871)
>>> > (about 7.5 kg!), NWA 2699 (213 g) and NWA 2989 (77
>>> > g).
>>> > The combined tkw at that time was therefore over
>>> > 10.858 kg.
>>> > However, Stefan suspected this new meteorite could
>>> > be different and sent a
>>> > new "provisoonal at the time) NWA number: 4399!
>>> >
>>> > Martin, look at these numbers. Some are mentioned in
>>> > your post, some other
>>> > not....
>>> >
>>> > Question: what is true from the above, regarding
>>> > pairings ? Are there less
>>> > ? more ?
>>> >
>>> > This comforts me that, bacause of the relatively
>>> > rare types that are
>>> > involved (acapulcoites, lodranites), all these
>>> > meteorites should really be
>>> > studied separately again and reclassified, hopefully
>>> > by the same group. If
>>> > so, it would probably take a looong time
>>> >
>>> > Glad to read anyone's comments.
>>> > In between, beware of "wild classifications" and
>>> > some potential
>>> > unscrupulous dealer's speculations in their near
>>> > future offerings !
>>> >
>>> > Zelimir
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A 18:44 24/10/2007 +0200, Martin Altmann a ?crit :
>>> > >Nevertheless, that mail could have been send three
>>> > times,
>>> > >cause it's delighting news for many more
>>> > collectors,
>>> > >wasn't NWA 2871 that ACAP with especially many
>>> > pairings?
>>> > >Can we carry them together her?
>>> > >
>>> > >NWA 2656
>>> > >NWA 2699
>>> > >NWA 2714
>>> > >NWA 2866
>>> > >NWA 2871
>>> > >NWA 2989
>>> > >NWA 4399
>>> > >Which else?
>>> > >
>>> > >So I guess quite a lot of collectors can open a
>>> > bottle today!
>>> > >Best!
>>> > >Martin
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >-----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
>>> > >Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>> >
>>> >[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
>>> > Im Auftrag von
>>> > drtanuki
>>> > >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2007 18:29
>>> > >An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; dirk ross
>>> > >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD NWA2871
>>> > reclassified now officially
>>> > >aLodranite --additional info for contact
>>> > >
>>> > >Sorry this message bounced.
>>> > >
>>> > > > Dear List,
>>> > > > Sorry, I forgot to add Blaine`s contact
>>> > > > information
>>> > > > when I posted his sales ad for the NWA2871
>>> > Lodranite
>>> > > > super special offer. Much has sold so do wait
>>> > to
>>> > > > buy.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > His email works sometimes (when it gets
>>> > checked):
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Blaine Reed <brmeteorites at yahoo.com>
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Best is his telephone/fax: 1-970-874-1487
>>> > > > (Colorado
>>> > > > time)
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Thank you! If you cannot reach him, please
>>> > email me
>>> > > > for prices and availability. Thank you.
>>> > > > Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > > > drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi List,
>>> > > > > If anyone missed out on buying NWA2871 you
>>> > had
>>> > > > > better buy it now before the price is beyond
>>> > your
>>> > > > > reach.
>>> > > > > Contact Blaine Reed or myself and place your
>>> > > > > orders
>>> > > > > for a once-in-a-lifetime chance to own a
>>> > Lodranite
>>> > > > > at
>>> > > > > a reasonable price.
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > www.MeteoritesJapan.com
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > > www.InsekiJapan.com
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > __________________________________________________
>>> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
>>> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>>> > > > > protection around
>>> > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > >______________________________________________
>>> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> > >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> >
>>> >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>> > >
>>> > >______________________________________________
>>> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> > >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> >
>>> >http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>> >
>>> > Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
>>> > Universit?Ede Haute Alsace
>>> > ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
>>> > 3, Rue A. Werner,
>>> > F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
>>> > Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
>>> > Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________________________
>>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> >
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________________________
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>>> >
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>>> >
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
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>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>> Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
>> Universit? de Haute Alsace
>> ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
>> 3, Rue A. Werner,
>> F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
>> Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
>> Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> ______________________________________________
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>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>


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Received on Thu 25 Oct 2007 06:45:37 PM PDT