[meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion

From: Jerry <grf2_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:26:17 -0400
Message-ID: <38BB6F8F31F9455283CE1B9D5F059E3C_at_Notebook>

So, thank you Bernd, Zelmire, Dirk, Martin for the clarification on the
distinction between Lord. and Acopl.
If I read correctly, we talking same source, parent body, different depth,
analogous to HED material. If so what parent body has been identified as the
source for these?
Sorry to ask a question that I could research easily but I'm a little behind
in my work [like the butcher who backed into the meat slicer].
Jerry Flaherty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zelimir Gabelica" <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>
To: "drtanuki" <drtanuki at yahoo.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
"Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>; "Greg Hupe" <gmhupe at htn.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite confusion


Yes, Dirk, many thanks.

I already have acquired a small end section of this NWA 2871 from our good
friend Blaine in mid 2006.
I corrected and updated earlier this week its status, based on what Blaine
recently wrote on his monthly list, believing he might be right (or at
least correctly informed) and therefore having already thrown champagne in
the frig.
Although, regarding all your recent comments, it could perhaps have been
wiser to wait now for the new reclassification...but never mind, when
champagne is cold enough, we'll drink it anyway.

Here is the present description of that NWA 2871, as copied fom my
collection catalog:


NWA 2871 (Morocco, Lodranite)(SlowW3), found 2003, End Section, 50% crust,
2.01g
Description:
18x14x4 mm, black-brown, mottled end s..Was Acapulcoite (2006) but recently
reclassified as Lodranite (2007) because of the grain size > 045 mm (here:
0.6 to 0.7 mm).
Paired with NWA 2656. tkw: 1 at 3,467 g. BR 06/517

I'll spare you the effort to read the description of my other former
acapulcoites paired with 2871 and that could possibly become lodranites in
future.

More generally, may I suggest we, all who will be in Ensisheim in June
2008, celebrate our new (or future) lodranites in collection by some extra
beer blast ? I've the feeling we might be many of us involved! And perhaps
a special bottle can be set aside for Greg who has an unpaired lodranite!

Btw: if all this mess continues, acapulcoites could rapidly become more
scarce than lodranites, eh ?

Best,

Zelimir

A 07:48 25/10/2007 -0700, drtanuki a ?crit :
>Dear Martin, Zelimir and Greg and List,
>
> Here is what Blaine wrote about the reclassification
>of NWA 2871:
>------------------------------------------------------
>
> "...it seems that there was an error in the original
>classification on this (NWA 2871), Lodranites and
>Acapulcoites (what this was orginally classified as)
>are pretty much chemically and isotopically
>indistinguishable. Their only difference is in grain
>size. Acapolcoites have a fairly small average grain
>size (under .30mm) and Lodranites have a fairly large
>average grain size (over .45mm), indicative of deeper
>origin and slower cooling. This meteorite (NWA 2871)
>has an average grain size of .6 to .7mm. The error
>came in that the researchers that did the initial
>report on this stone thought that the grain size
>boundary for Lodranites was over .75mm."
>----------------------------------------------------
>
> So my conclusion, since the grain size and chemical
>analysis fit the classification of a Lodranite,
>correction of classification should be forth-coming.
>
> Crack a bottle of wine Zelimir!
>
>My comments in regards to Herr Altmann`s comments:
>
>.....Yeah, wait until the mess/mass of NWA martian
>classification numbers and pairing that will be done
>after this recent find of fresh NWA Martians.
> In my opinion it is a waste of scientific resource
>to have each holder/buyer/seller submit under a
>separate NWA# and then pairing has to be done. Pair
>the things then assign one official number all at the
>same lab with the same scientist and don`t pass off
>extra material that you cannot sell without a number
>so that someone else is left to have it classified
>again with an additional NWA #.
> I am not saying that anyone has done this...it is
>purely my opinion that number games need to cease and
>that priority should be given to supporting the
>scientists to get proper information, so that timely
>classification and recording in the MetBull can be
>completed within months and not years.
> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>
>
>
>
>
>--- Greg Hupe <gmhupe at htn.net> wrote:
>
> > Hello Martin, Zelimir and List,
> >
> > Your efforts with the ACAP (Lodranite?) new
> > classification is appreciated by
> > all I am sure. I can say that NWA 4478, the
> > Brecciated Lodranite I have, is
> > not paired to the large list of re-classified ACAPs
> > you have put together.
> > First, NWA 4478 is a low metal type and brecciated.
> >
> > A quick comparison to the NWA 4236 photos you posted
> > for Andi:
> > 1) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco1.jpg
> > 2) www.meteoritenhaus.de/img/Acapulco2.jpg
> >
> > NWA 4478 Brecciated Lodranite (Easily not paired to
> > the large ACAP
> > 'Lodranite?' grouping):
> > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa4478/nwa4478slice.jpg
> > Sentence from NWA 4478 classification:, "The modal
> > abundance of metal (+
> > limonite after primary metal) measured by BSE
> > imaging on a large polished
> > slice is 5 vol.%."
> >
> > I think it is imperative to have Ted Bunch at NAU
> > re-examine all of the
> > ACAPs in the grouping and do a side-by-side study,
> > this would truly be the
> > best way to determine pairings and if they are
> > lodranites.
> >
> > I hope this helps a little.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Greg
> >
> > ====================
> > Greg Hupe
> > The Hupe Collection
> > NaturesVault (eBay)
> > gmhupe at htn.net
> > www.LunarRock.com
> > IMCA 3163
> > ====================
> > Click here for my current eBay auctions:
> > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
> > To: "'Zelimir Gabelica'" <Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr>;
> > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
> > confusion
> >
> >
> > Hi Zelimir,
> >
> > that almost all those Acaps and now lodranites
> > (yippie) belong together, we
> > reconstructed all together here on the list a while
> > back, guess 1-2 years
> > ago.
> > (Also finding out, that it's quite unlikely compared
> > to the very few
> > Antarctic Acap-groups, the fall stats and the find
> > stats, that there
> > suddenly should appear a dozen different ACAPs from
> > Sahara).
> >
> > Therefore I invited now all involved, that we should
> > try to set the pieces
> > of the puzzle together as far as we can - hopefully
> > without animosities, as
> > the collectors, dealers, maybe scientists would
> > profit all.
> > As you mentioned, Zelimir, those ACAPs with low
> > shock level and weathering
> > degrees of W3,W3-4 are concerned, which often
> > appeared within a shorter time
> > frame from desert paradise.
> >
> >
> > NWA 2656 Oakes. Bulletin: has 356g, broken from
> > a larger mass of 7.5kg
> >
> > NWA 2714 Birdsell/Oakes. 1656g
> > Bulletin: Paired with 2565, stems also according the
> > owners from the same
> > 7.5kg mass.
> >
> > NWA 2699 owner unknown 1294g Bulletin: Paired
> > with NWA 2656
> >
> > NWA 2866 owner not mentioned 213g Bulletin: paired
> > with NWA 2656
> >
> > NWA 2871 Reed 3467g Bulletin: Paired with NWA
> > 2656,
> > according Turecki, part of the 7.5kg mass.
> >
> > NWA 2989 Hupe 77g believed by the owner to be
> > paired with NWA 2656
> >
> > NWA 2775 Reed&Turecki 222g nothing known, some say
> > it's the same, some not.
> >
> > NWA 4399 Ralew 210g Bulletin: May be paired with
> > NWA 2627
> > There we are sure, that it's the same stuff as
> > 2656/2714/2871.. and cause we
> > have some slices left, it should be no problem to
> > get it fixed.
> >
> > NWA 2627 Strope/Farmer 68g nothing known Jim/Mike
> > help!
> >
> >
> > Hence so far, I guess we can say:
> >
> > Officially paired are:
> > NWA 2656, NWA 2699, NWA 2714, NWA 2866, NWA 2871
> > type specimens of all at
> > NAU (Bunch,Wittke)
> >
> > NWA 2989 is still listed as provisional, no big deal
> > to check the pairing,
> > because type specimen is at Bunch, says data base.
> > Owner says probably
> > paired.
> >
> > NWA 2775 there also the type specimen is at NAU, so
> > a pairing, if exist,
> > could be established there.
> > Here we can be happy, that Blaine owns a part, as
> > Turecki went into hiding,
> > leaving many dealers unpaid.
> >
> > NWA 2627 also at NAU, so...
> >
> > NWA 4399 - there we a sure, the type specimens are
> > in Berlin, but we will
> > take care, that it gets officialized.
> >
> > Others:
> >
> > NWA 1052 and 1054, do not belong to that group, they
> > are much more fresh and
> > fine-grained.
> >
> > NWA 2235 Fectay 64g is definitely to fresh with W1
> > -------
> >
> > Finally left to be excluded or added to the big main
> > pairing group, where I
> > don't know nothing about, respectively others will
> > know more and better:
> >
> > NWA 725 Fectay 3824g
> > NWA 1617 Oakes 21g (UWS)
> > NWA 3008 Burkhard 157g (Hamburg)
> > NWA 4236 Herkstroeter 24g (Hamburg)
> > NWA 4478 Hupe 444g (UWS)
> >
> > Four of the holders are here on the list, so please
> > help all together!
> >
> > The data I took from the Bulletin database, the
> > other information from the
> > discussion last year, so please, no choler
> > necessary, we all only want to
> > pot Humpty together again and to clear the number
> > mess. (Uhh if one thinks,
> > that the new Martians now around will get almost a
> > dozen numbers...).
> > And, if the last not yet checked for a pairing will
> > have been compared and
> > com-paired, then we will all hope, that it will be
> > added to the Bulletins.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Martin
> >
> >
> > PS: Zelimir, we checked it back, with the chondrite,
> > you must have mixed
> > something up. It's an L6, still under classification
> > and not ready yet.
> >
> > -----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> > Im Auftrag von Zelimir
> > Gabelica
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 10:19
> > An: Martin Altmann; 'drtanuki';
> > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Betreff: [meteorite-list] the new Lodranite
> > confusion
> >
> > Hi Martin, all
> >
> > In my archives I can read that my NWA 4399
> > (considered as Acapulcoite as
> > the many other you mention and acquired from Stefan
> > Ralew) was paired to
> > NWA 2627.
> > So another new Lodranite ?
> > I hope this could be cleared up soon by Nom Com ?
> > My first feeling is that all these NWA numbers (and
> > other) should be
> > re-examined to confirm their new classification as
> > Lodranites.
> >
> > I stay tuned....and am ready to open 3 bottles,
> > should my 3 little samples
> > of NWA 2871 (2.1 g end section from Blaine), NWA
> > 2714 (2.38 g full slice
> > from Stefan) and NWA 4399 (also 2.38 g full slice
> > from Stefan) become
> > Lodranites.
> >
> > Now let's go into more details regarding these 3
> > samples, all classified as
> > acapulcoites at the time (2006).
> > My labels are so far differentiating them in terms
> > of "origin" and W
> > (weathering) or S (shock) numbers, which are indeed
> > poor criteria.
> > Here is what I can read:
> >
> > NWA 2871: S(low), W3, purchased (or found ?) in
> > Morocco, 2003
> > NWA 2714: S(low), W3/4, found in "Sahara", 2004
> > NWA 4399: S(min), W(extensive), purchased (or found
> > ?) in Algeria, 2003
> >
> > To add to the confusion, I aso got from Stefan in
> > 2006 a 32.16 g full
> > crusted slice of an "unclassified ordinary
> > chondrite", brecciated, found in
> > "Sahara in 2006, S and W unspecified as it was (and
> > still is ?) "under
> > study". Its tkw was 1050 g....
> >
> > In a previous note, Stefan stated that this
> > meteorite was "NWA 2714-likely
> > paired".
> >
> > If this is so, then literature said that NWA 2714
> > (acapulcoite) was paired
> > with other acapulcoites NWA 1052 (22g), NWA 1054 (86
> > g), NWA (2656 + 2871)
> > (about 7.5 kg!), NWA 2699 (213 g) and NWA 2989 (77
> > g).
> > The combined tkw at that time was therefore over
> > 10.858 kg.
> > However, Stefan suspected this new meteorite could
> > be different and sent a
> > new "provisoonal at the time) NWA number: 4399!
> >
> > Martin, look at these numbers. Some are mentioned in
> > your post, some other
> > not....
> >
> > Question: what is true from the above, regarding
> > pairings ? Are there less
> > ? more ?
> >
> > This comforts me that, bacause of the relatively
> > rare types that are
> > involved (acapulcoites, lodranites), all these
> > meteorites should really be
> > studied separately again and reclassified, hopefully
> > by the same group. If
> > so, it would probably take a looong time
> >
> > Glad to read anyone's comments.
> > In between, beware of "wild classifications" and
> > some potential
> > unscrupulous dealer's speculations in their near
> > future offerings !
> >
> > Zelimir
> >
> >
> >
> > A 18:44 24/10/2007 +0200, Martin Altmann a ?crit :
> > >Nevertheless, that mail could have been send three
> > times,
> > >cause it's delighting news for many more
> > collectors,
> > >wasn't NWA 2871 that ACAP with especially many
> > pairings?
> > >Can we carry them together her?
> > >
> > >NWA 2656
> > >NWA 2699
> > >NWA 2714
> > >NWA 2866
> > >NWA 2871
> > >NWA 2989
> > >NWA 4399
> > >Which else?
> > >
> > >So I guess quite a lot of collectors can open a
> > bottle today!
> > >Best!
> > >Martin
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Urspr?Egliche Nachricht-----
> > >Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> >
> >[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com]
> > Im Auftrag von
> > drtanuki
> > >Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Oktober 2007 18:29
> > >An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; dirk ross
> > >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] AD NWA2871
> > reclassified now officially
> > >aLodranite --additional info for contact
> > >
> > >Sorry this message bounced.
> > >
> > > > Dear List,
> > > > Sorry, I forgot to add Blaine`s contact
> > > > information
> > > > when I posted his sales ad for the NWA2871
> > Lodranite
> > > > super special offer. Much has sold so do wait
> > to
> > > > buy.
> > > >
> > > > His email works sometimes (when it gets
> > checked):
> > > >
> > > > Blaine Reed <brmeteorites at yahoo.com>
> > > >
> > > > Best is his telephone/fax: 1-970-874-1487
> > > > (Colorado
> > > > time)
> > > >
> > > > Thank you! If you cannot reach him, please
> > email me
> > > > for prices and availability. Thank you.
> > > > Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote: Hi List,
> > > > > If anyone missed out on buying NWA2871 you
> > had
> > > > > better buy it now before the price is beyond
> > your
> > > > > reach.
> > > > > Contact Blaine Reed or myself and place your
> > > > > orders
> > > > > for a once-in-a-lifetime chance to own a
> > Lodranite
> > > > > at
> > > > > a reasonable price.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you. Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> > > > >
> > > > > www.MeteoritesJapan.com
> > > > >
> > > > > www.InsekiJapan.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > > > protection around
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >______________________________________________
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> >
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> > >
> > >______________________________________________
> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
> > >Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
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> >
> > Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
> > Universit?Ede Haute Alsace
> > ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
> > 3, Rue A. Werner,
> > F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
> > Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
> > Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> >
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> >
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> >
>
>______________________________________________
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Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Universit? de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15

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Received on Thu 25 Oct 2007 06:26:17 PM PDT