[meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers

From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 21 12:17:31 2004
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041121114432.0294dc30_at_gsvaresm02.er.usgs.gov>

There are several reasons for this result. Among these are:

1) Not all scientists are equally skilled at classifying meteorites.
2) Not all samples are representative of the whole. It used to be that a
lab would have the entire mass to examine and could see the entire
structure. With meteorites in commercial hands, they often just get a
small chip. Given that lots of chondrites and achondrites are breccias,
this can be a problem.
3) Some meteorites are borderline between types. Many of us try to make a
decision as to which it is, and two people might come down on opposite
sides of the line. If it actually matters, somebody will do careful work
and publish on the subject. In most cases the error doesn't
matter. Researchers all know that classification errors of this sort happen.
4) Nobody has ever standardized the way that brecciated meteorites should
be described. Someday this will be fixed.
5) Some areas of meteorite classification are controversial (e.g., the use
of type 7).

We already have a consortium of labs... it is all of those labs that agree
to house type specimens and make them available for research whenever an
important scientific question arises. We already have a network for data
sharing... it includes the Meteoritical Bulletin and the numerous
scientific journals that publish abstracts and peer-reviewed research. If
there is a need for a repository of photos, for example, one could be set
up in short order. Is there?

On the question of pairing... for most meteorites, pairing studies are of
little scientific interest and not worth taking the time to do. Visual
pairings are almost worthless. For the important meteorites, pairings get
worked out in the scientific literature over time. This may be unsettling
for some dealers, but that's the way it is.

jeff

At 11:11 AM 11/21/2004, Matt Morgan wrote:
>Just to add a note...
>There is a fundamental scientific problem of classifying meteorites.
>
>Try sending two pieces of the same meteorite to different labs. Chances
>are you will get different results.
>For instance, I have "L5's" that came back as "L4's" and "L6's".
>"Regolith" this and "Primitive" that.
>I heard the same situation happening for NWA 1929, either howardite OR
>eucrite. I understand some of it is "interpretive".
>
>The system itself is flawed.
>
>Ideally, we need an NWA consortium of labs to correct this and have type
>specimens on hand.
>
>This SEEMS to be an easy fix, but university politics plays a huge role.
>
>So all you scientists who study NWA's, how about a network for meteorite
>"data sharing"? It will make ALL our lives easier...
>
>Matt Morgan
>Mile High Meteorites
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
>[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Rob
>Wesel
>Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:38 AM
>To: Michael Farmer; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>
>
>While I truly believe this practice is ultimately costly to the
>collector,
>truer words have never been spoken. Thanks Mike:
>
>"Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is guilty of this,
>we are in the process of correcting the situation and to start people
>MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we see
>tonight."
>
>So, for now, we make it right. We follow the rules and pay out to prove
>pairings. We wait longer to get to market and costs go up because repeat
>lab
>fees and repeat type specimens factor into prices per gram. I don't like
>it
>one bit but that's what we do. I will be finishing off my "likely
>paired"
>howardite as such but new specimens are already off to the lab,
>specimens I
>know are paired.
>While I seriously doubt the law has any holding here, the NomCom asks
>this
>of us. Bottom line, if two folks buy bread from the same baker...they're
>
>eating the same bread. The full weight of this ruling will soon be felt
>by
>all as we bog down institutions who want to study meteorites with
>incessant
>pairings, not much grant money in pairings, not much recognition. But
>this
>is what we do...for now.
>
>Rob Wesel
>------------------
>We are the music makers...
>and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>Willy Wonka, 1971
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Michael Farmer" <meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net>
>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:56 PM
>Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>
>
> > To clarify something that is obviously causing some problems in the
> > meteorite world right now, I want everyone to know that
> > NWA 788, 787, and NWA 482 are numbers that came from rather large or
> > meteorites with hundreds of pieces bought during one of my
>expeditions.
> > The Hupes and many other people have the right to those numbers.
> > Now, there are other numbers being widely used without proper title
>(as Dr
> > Grossman has stated publicly and with finality that people do not own
> > numbers, but numbers are assigned to specific meteorite specimens and
>must
> > not be used with other meteorites just because you heard or someone
>told
> > you it is the same).
> > Let's all please stop this practice as it is really hurting our
>business
> > and hobby. Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is
>guilty
> > of this, we are in the process of correcting the situation and to
>start
> > people MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we
>see
> > tonight.
> >
> > I perused eBay today and it is still rampant with sellers using
> > numbers
> > they seem to have drawn from a hat. So please ask you seller next time
>you
> > buy something, how they got that number, who it was assigned to and if
>not
> > them, just how they came to call it that.
> > Mike Farmer
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
>
>
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Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
954 National Center
Reston, VA 20192, USA
Received on Sun 21 Nov 2004 12:17:28 PM PST