[meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers

From: John Birdsell <birdsell_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 21 13:34:32 2004
Message-ID: <41A0DFBB.60106_at_email.arizona.edu>

Hello Jeff and thanks for your email. I think a repository of high
quality photos of type specimens would be extremely useful for the
entire meteorite community.


Cheers


-John



Jeff Grossman wrote:

> There are several reasons for this result. Among these are:
>
> 1) Not all scientists are equally skilled at classifying meteorites.
> 2) Not all samples are representative of the whole. It used to be
> that a lab would have the entire mass to examine and could see the
> entire structure. With meteorites in commercial hands, they often
> just get a small chip. Given that lots of chondrites and achondrites
> are breccias, this can be a problem.
> 3) Some meteorites are borderline between types. Many of us try to
> make a decision as to which it is, and two people might come down on
> opposite sides of the line. If it actually matters, somebody will do
> careful work and publish on the subject. In most cases the error
> doesn't matter. Researchers all know that classification errors of
> this sort happen.
> 4) Nobody has ever standardized the way that brecciated meteorites
> should be described. Someday this will be fixed.
> 5) Some areas of meteorite classification are controversial (e.g., the
> use of type 7).
>
> We already have a consortium of labs... it is all of those labs that
> agree to house type specimens and make them available for research
> whenever an important scientific question arises. We already have a
> network for data sharing... it includes the Meteoritical Bulletin and
> the numerous scientific journals that publish abstracts and
> peer-reviewed research. If there is a need for a repository of photos,
> for example, one could be set up in short order. Is there?
>
> On the question of pairing... for most meteorites, pairing studies are
> of little scientific interest and not worth taking the time to do.
> Visual pairings are almost worthless. For the important meteorites,
> pairings get worked out in the scientific literature over time. This
> may be unsettling for some dealers, but that's the way it is.
>
> jeff
>
> At 11:11 AM 11/21/2004, Matt Morgan wrote:
>
>> Just to add a note...
>> There is a fundamental scientific problem of classifying meteorites.
>>
>> Try sending two pieces of the same meteorite to different labs. Chances
>> are you will get different results.
>> For instance, I have "L5's" that came back as "L4's" and "L6's".
>> "Regolith" this and "Primitive" that.
>> I heard the same situation happening for NWA 1929, either howardite OR
>> eucrite. I understand some of it is "interpretive".
>>
>> The system itself is flawed.
>>
>> Ideally, we need an NWA consortium of labs to correct this and have type
>> specimens on hand.
>>
>> This SEEMS to be an easy fix, but university politics plays a huge role.
>>
>> So all you scientists who study NWA's, how about a network for meteorite
>> "data sharing"? It will make ALL our lives easier...
>>
>> Matt Morgan
>> Mile High Meteorites
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Rob
>> Wesel
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 2:38 AM
>> To: Michael Farmer; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>>
>>
>> While I truly believe this practice is ultimately costly to the
>> collector,
>> truer words have never been spoken. Thanks Mike:
>>
>> "Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is guilty of this,
>> we are in the process of correcting the situation and to start people
>> MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we see
>> tonight."
>>
>> So, for now, we make it right. We follow the rules and pay out to prove
>> pairings. We wait longer to get to market and costs go up because repeat
>> lab
>> fees and repeat type specimens factor into prices per gram. I don't like
>> it
>> one bit but that's what we do. I will be finishing off my "likely
>> paired"
>> howardite as such but new specimens are already off to the lab,
>> specimens I
>> know are paired.
>> While I seriously doubt the law has any holding here, the NomCom asks
>> this
>> of us. Bottom line, if two folks buy bread from the same baker...they're
>>
>> eating the same bread. The full weight of this ruling will soon be felt
>> by
>> all as we bog down institutions who want to study meteorites with
>> incessant
>> pairings, not much grant money in pairings, not much recognition. But
>> this
>> is what we do...for now.
>>
>> Rob Wesel
>> ------------------
>> We are the music makers...
>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>> Willy Wonka, 1971
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Farmer" <meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net>
>> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:56 PM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteorite numbers
>>
>>
>> > To clarify something that is obviously causing some problems in the
>> > meteorite world right now, I want everyone to know that
>> > NWA 788, 787, and NWA 482 are numbers that came from rather large or
>> > meteorites with hundreds of pieces bought during one of my
>> expeditions.
>> > The Hupes and many other people have the right to those numbers.
>> > Now, there are other numbers being widely used without proper title
>> (as Dr
>> > Grossman has stated publicly and with finality that people do not own
>> > numbers, but numbers are assigned to specific meteorite specimens and
>> must
>> > not be used with other meteorites just because you heard or someone
>> told
>> > you it is the same).
>> > Let's all please stop this practice as it is really hurting our
>> business
>> > and hobby. Virtually every dealer including myself has been or is
>> guilty
>> > of this, we are in the process of correcting the situation and to
>> start
>> > people MUST immediately comply or this will just spiral downward as we
>> see
>> > tonight.
>> >
>> > I perused eBay today and it is still rampant with sellers using
>> > numbers
>> > they seem to have drawn from a hat. So please ask you seller next time
>> you
>> > buy something, how they got that number, who it was assigned to and if
>> not
>> > them, just how they came to call it that.
>> > Mike Farmer
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>>
>>
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>
>
> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
> 954 National Center
> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>
>
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Received on Sun 21 Nov 2004 01:34:35 PM PST