[meteorite-list] Fwd: Lots of Gold and Meteorites on Heritage Auctions
From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 12:13:30 -0700
We've had this discussion before, Adam. You're gaslighting.
The pairing rules are very clear and can be read in section 4.2 (a) and (b)
of this link: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/docs/nc-guidelines.pdf
1) "a single (collective) name may be given in cases where fragments fit
together or similar-looking fragments are found within a few meters of each
2) "Two or more newly discovered meteorites in dense collection areas may
be considered paired with each other or with another formally named
meteorite if there is overwhelming evidence, including geographic data that
are consistent with the meteorites being part of a single fall."
When you buy a bag of "NWA 1110" from a dealer in Morocco, you have no idea
where they're from or if they were actually picked up in the same place.
Every single fragment needs to get its own NWA number and needs to be
analyzed. Type specimen, etc. Unless the fragments physically fit
together and/or you have an in-situ photo showing them sitting together on
the ground, you're breaking Nomenclature Committee guidelines.
You can't just "pair" a pile of stones by looking at them, or by having
someone else look at them. You can have them all analyzed and show that
they're internally *identical.* Doesn't matter. They all need their own
NWA numbers and type specimens.
And don't just think this applies only to planetaries. You bought a 20
kilogram sack of "NWA 869?" Every single stone needs to be cut and
analyzed if you're going to sell it as NWA 869. Except...you can't even do
that. Even if they are all analyzed and all fall in the range of L3.8-6,
like NWA 869, each fragment will still need its own NWA number because you
still don't have any proof of where they were found.
Those are the rules, and you've broken just as many of them as anyone
else. These are guidelines written for scientists, by scientists. This is
how stones are recovered and dealt with in places like Antarctica. Every
detail of a stone's recovery is meticulously recorded, and every
(sub-gram!) fragment is analyzed. The only people I know who have followed
such guidelines are the hunters in DCAs like Skip Wilson, who actually
record every single stone they find.
You -- and every other collector and dealer -- have played by different
rules. Even the IMCA has bought into a different set of rules that protect
dealer interests: they say that you can't use "another meteorite dealer's
NWA number," but once you get a stone analyzed, you're allowed to
"self-pair" anything you want to that analysis, essentially without
scrutiny. This has led to a fair amount of misrepresented material in
circulation, from "NWA 869," to the mix-and-match Martian and Lunar
pairings of recent years.
Nomenclature Committee guidelines haven't been followed since NWA
meteorites were in the single digits, by you or anyone else. As John Shea
said before, pairing material at one's discretion is only as reliable as
the dealer doing it.
On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list <
meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
> Thank you for the last word and the concern for my reputation. These
> piggy-backing and self-pairing debates have gone on long before you became
> in interested in meteorites.
> My advice, since you are a member, is to read the IMCA bylaws which are
> all about authenticity and adhering to Meteoritical Society rules which do
> not support piggy-backing and self-pairing.
> On 11/4/2017 10:20 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>> I am more than comfortable with my reputation and what I have
>> contributed to the world of meteorites. I don't need to blow smoke up
>> my arse or have the need to constantly have others prop up my fragile
>> ego. As for your opinion of me, well it's quite obvious I could not
>> care a jot what your opinion is, it is meaningless to me as it is to
>> most! (a fact that is backed up by all of the messages I've had in
>> private :-)) And as for calling you out, whether on this list or on
>> Facebook, how you can state that that is 'behind your back' just shows
>> your levels of paranoid delusion! This list and facebook are both
>> public forums and I am more than happy to speak my mind on either!
>> And as for the rest of your garbled message, if it was actually
>> coherent, readable and understandable then I might be able to
>> But, as Johannes says folk are here to talk about meteorites so I
>> won't bore them by responding further. However I'm more than sure that
>> you'll want to have the final word and cement your reputation as
>> someone who is losing the plot by clambering onto your rickety soapbox
>> and ranting further whilst dribbling into your bib..................
>> Martin Goff
>> International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA) member #3387
>> On 4 Nov 2017 16:50, "Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list"
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>> A none answer is still an answer. I will take it that you have made no
>>> contributions in the short time you have been into meteorites.
>>> Here are a few quotes from you about me on Facebook from Martin Goff;
>>> "He is pompous prick! Just dissing everyone else to try and keep the crown
>>> on NWA 5000" and, "He keeps on saying he is leaving meteorites and most
>>> folk wish he'd just do as he says....." I wont post the latest comments on
>>> Facebook since they are mainly posted by dealers and demonstrate high level
>>> of immaturity. Talking behind somebodies back is a sign cowardice, a trait
>>> wherein fear and excessive self concern override good judgement.
>>> You and others have an interest in Black Beauty may be one reasons you
>>> are speaking out. Collectors deserve to know that are thousands of grams
>>> of this material being held back and not reported.
>>> Curious minds want to know what contributions you have made giving you
>>> the right questions others true colors?
>>> There are dust makers and dust eaters.
>>> On 11/4/2017 9:24 AM, Martin Goff wrote:
>>>> Adam, if you weren't blinded by pomposity and your own bloated sense
>>>> of self worth then you'd know exactly what my contributions were/are
>>>> to the meteorite community. Your inflated sense of self importance and
>>>> continued self stimulation of blowing your own trumpet means that as
>>>> Jason says, people will call you out. If it wasn't for your continued
>>>> bullshit spout out to this list folk would just ignore you, as they
>>>> have for years..........
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