[meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color

From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 02:30:11 -0500
Message-ID: <158aefdb214-e94-1015a_at_webprd-a01.mail.aol.com>

Hi John,

I understood you were interested in the gassing/vapor process of bluing, which is just one way to "blue". Not sure but think this will cause acid at its boiling temperature ("acid steam") or ambient over hours as a vapor, to penetrate the porous iron, so you need to deal with that just as the naval jelly or even more since it penetrates more vs a gel that stays on the surface more. A gun barrel should be finished to remove all surface imperfections and get down to a smooth polished surface before such treatment, right? Experts? The polished barrel surface can be easily cleaned and very effectively degreased after doing that step by step purging spent chemicals used in the process.

The meteorite presents a way bigger challenge due to its porous and weathered nature. If I were testing I would find a rusted gun barrel or other suitable piece of metal that has a surface that was severely rust damaged, give it the treatment and then see how it blues, pitted, channeled and cratered out. That would be an practice step before deciding to try the meteorite. The practice step would be interesting not only for practice but also to get a feel for how well it works as the surface to be finished gets more imperfect or intermediate. For sure this effect can be done, but really is it feasible or just a curiosity to play with because you think a color is cool, anyway those are my thoughts.

We all have our view on the meaning of "natural" which like Pilate has an ambiguous answer. Because it means different things to different people what makes me happy is to look at each locality as found and clean them up preserving that aspect best. We saw that in Francisco's links of some awesome specimens. Anyway we all do what we want. The problem is that when we use meteorites as educational tools we can do a disservice to those learning that don't have the benefit of seeing what has been done to the meteorite. Soon, somebody says that we all know Campos are black!

My analogy would be that I grew up thinking that dinosaurs were gray like elephants, hippos, and alligators. Now some evidence points to the possibility of some having been brightly or iridescently colored. Bummer I grew up with that assumption.

Since irons are believed from shattered proto-planets and asteroids capable of differentiation, I feel ok with bright fresh metal color being pristine. Could be wrong but seems harmless at this point abd after floating around as you say who knows the effects of space weathering on a particular iron. Here is a NASA artists conception of (16) Psyche, the big mother of iron space rocks.
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/asteroid/20150930/psyche20150929.jpg

Perhaps we will know before Christmas whether NASA decides to give Arizona State's half billion dollar Psyche mission a green light and we'll get to see it up close and comfortable in color in 10 years from now if we last that long.

For now I'm happy to be a minimalist, remembering the error of the dinosaurs. Since irons are supposed from M-class asteroids from collisions denuding the cores of differentiated bodies, I think a freshly cleaned iron meteorites or a polished slice is a safe color to call natural and unmodified to our collections. That is why I told Francisco to learn to like the bare metal color. And for individuals I prefer to be conservative and capture the color of what they look like as found whenever possible, after nature has taken its course. With the rusting problems on Campos I guess it isn't too important if we start making them in personalized colors so everyone can have the pretty meteorite in the color of their choice, just like Atlas pasta machines. Candy apple red comes to mind, to go with the Mustang convertible in my dreams some day! '
My Best
Doug



-----Original Message-----
From: John Lutzon <jl at lutzon.com>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>; Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 11:26 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color


Doug,

I do admire you and would like to question you and the whole question of "natural" patina......
These guys have been floating out there for Billions of years and only when they arrive here
and burn to a crisp (which I personally love a bubbly black coating) do we call it natural.
When these metal chunks first formed and cooled they may have shined like a new coin.

This jelly or that coating will all introduce "stuff" on and into said object. I agrre with you
as far as cleaning and then acetone (to, again, de-grease). After that, the most natural way
to darken and protect iron is the hundreds of years old method of forming iron oxide and
boiling. This process leaves no chemicals on the object. The most difficult part of doing
this process is the cleaning and de-greasing---after that just put a small amount or reagent
in the bottom of household food container, hang the meteorite and wait about 8 hours (varies),
take out and put in a pot of boiling water. The red/brown iron oxide somehow turns black
and when brushed off leaves a protective dark finish. Simple. Every blued gun you've ever seen
has had this oxidation method applied and after hundreds of years some of them look pritine.

As I do not know if this process will work on an iron such as Campo, I (although in a wheelchair)
have decided to try this method on one of my smaller 5.45Kg individuals. Although i'm more
than happy with its present apperance, which can be seen here, i'll give it a go.
http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=2639
As there were no comments on my original post, i'll do it and get back with the results, pics.

All best to all, John



----- Original Message -----
From: "MexicoDoug via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: <cojack at tiscali.it>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color


Hi Francisco, My opinion is no, about "naval jelly" for the reasons I discussed in my last post somewhere below. But if you want
to do that yourself, you can make a gel out of phosphoric acid, about 12-20% (w/w). Gel is made with addition of a food gum starch
like when you make Italian gelato. It will stain darker for reaction with the acid. (instead of oxide you get phosphate). Here is
an example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi#/media/File:QtubIronPillar.JPG
However leaving harsh acid is not my idea then it penetrates the meteorite like Muonion.

Regarding your question to me, I did not misunderstand, I think. You simply do not want the true matte gray color of the clean
metal after you remove the oxidation. And you are clear now that you do not want to fake a natural color, you just want to change
the color to look more "natural" :-). (Then everyone will see this color and believe it is natural unless you tell them
differently.)

This Campo is old buried microscopically fractured metal piece if you read near the bottom I recommended the process, assuming
first you had sandblasted and treated as you indicated you would:

"The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious, then dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of the aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just wipe them off. The get sucked in.

Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like hot potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that have been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. Then a little of the oil when all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check."

OK, now you change the question to ask to me and others:
"It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil or waxes?
Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?

To that my thought is you must experiment under your conditions with oven *heat alone* after treatment. Use with different oven
times and temperatures until you see what tones you can achieve. The heat will create some of these darkening effects,
re-oxidizing the fresh surface in a controlled way which I think is what you are asking to do since you don't want coatings. The
purpose of the wax or oil is to stabilize the interior, not to color the surface, so this is independent of your surface staining..
A side effect of oil is that dark fresh, chloride free rust is taken up in the oil and smuges (colors) the surface darker, the more
you rub...with gloves.

You ask about no use of oil, but consider your severely rusted original meteorite is porous after the thousands of years
terrestrialized somewhat, so any exterior coating will not protect the interior. Oil is principally for that purpose, to close any
pores and keep the interior cleaned, IMO, no matter how you destructively stain your native metal that has been revealed after
cleaning.

Better yet, buy a more solid meteorite like Gibeon or Seymchan and give it a light brushing like your links. Some of those links
are beautiful and solid. They are not so prone to rust because they are like solid metal parts - not porous. The underlying metal
is good sh*t! Just like buying good new tools, properly hardened, not some junk from cheap factory using inferior or degraded
quality base metal.

Or maybe rub a little microfine graphite lubrication particles into the oil until you get the favorite shade of black. It is
easily removed, including on fingers LOL (I never did that but it might be interesting)

Maybe others who are more practiced in this can help but this is the best I can say. Best of luck!
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Francesco Moser <cojack at tiscali.it>
To: 'MexicoDoug' <mexicodoug at aol.com>
Sent: Mon, Nov 28, 2016 9:51 am
Subject: R: iron meteorite natural color

Hello Doug!
Thanks a lot for your kind and long reply!

I think I was misunderstood due to my poor English.
Let me try to explain what I mean and what I want to reach as result, I use some pictures as example so maybe I can explain what I
have in my mind at best.
I don't want to put paint on the meteorite, absolutely no!

A fresh fall iron meteorite is gray/bluish, like this fresh fall:
http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/alihmani.jpg.w560h747.jpg
Some Sikhote-Alin hold the original dark/bluish fusion crust in the deepest regmaglypts.
I don't want to replicate this!

If the meteorite fall in a desert there will be on the surface a desert varnish patina, like this Gibeon and Taza:
http://megameteorite.com/img/meteoriti/famose/ferrose/gibeon_728.9.jpg
http://www.polandmet.com/_taza/002.htm
That's an amazing surface! I like it so much and I consider really natural.
I don't want to replicate this!

A deep buried meteorite like Muonionalusta have a thick layer of oxide, rock and soil cemented with rust and something else.
Like this:
http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/MTIyNlgxNjAw/z/R9QAAOSw44BYKadV/$/Iron-meteorite-Muonionalusta-complete-piece-Sweden-1370-grams-_57.jpg
This meteorite of course is natural, it is in as found condition!
Sorry but I don't really like this surface looking.

If I deep clean and blast sanding a meteorite like this I will obtain a nude grey iron meteorite.
Something like this Dronino:
http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/OTc2WDE2MDA=/z/vZYAAOSwmfhX5vTW/$/172-gram-DRONINO-METEORITE-specimen-from-RUSSIA-_57.jpg
For me this looking is too artificial and I don't like it.
I can reach this results, I have done this job some time on Muonio before cutting slices.

So ... as found condition is "too natural" and "nude grey iron" is too artificial!
This is in my opinion a good half way:
http://www.polandmet.com/_morasko/003.htm
Nude black iron!!!
This is what I mean in my first mail and premise
"As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example, have a black surface."
All the Campo I found on the market have this type of "black" surface:
http://www.katiepaterson.org/meteorite/katie_paterson_meteorite_giorgia_polizzi_120711_6695.jpg

This is what I want!!!

So .. how can I deeply remove rust and preserve this nude black iron surface?
I'm planning to use sand blasting for remove the rust, but with this process I will obtain a "nude grey iron"
It's possible to convert nude grey to nude black? Without using oil or waxes?
Or it's better to use a different process for remove rust?


I hope you can understand what I mean :)

Thanks

<x>x<x>x<x>
Francesco


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: MexicoDoug [mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com]
Inviato: sabato 26 novembre 2016 22:46
A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Oggetto: Re: iron meteorite natural color

Ciao Francisco

I'll try to give you a little more insight on your questions from my point of view and then write about what is practical to do.
It is important to stress "point of view" because in the end you will probably do with your meteorites whatever makes you happiest,
which clearly the impulse at this point is a jet black cosmetic preference of smooth black which I do not like when it is a
synthetic laboratory process.

First, you initially you asked:

"As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example, have a black surface. I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm
planning to remove rust with a sand blasting process. But with this I will obtain a grayish surface, like naked iron, the same
color of a slice."

This is *not* "as we know". I do not know of Campo meteorites being recovered with black surfaces, do you or anybody else know
this? I never personally had the good fortune to recover a Campo myself so it it my assumption. I have recovered other iron
meteorites. All are light or dark orange rust color except one locality that actually was naturally weathered to black.

So I feel your original premise of "as we know ... Campo ... black" is a false premise. Is it based on a mixed series of
assumptions maybe due to equating space, mystery, adrenaline, and night to blackness, seeing some naturally blackened weathered
meteorites, imagining a stony meteorite fresh crust for your iron, and maybe never seeing a freshly fallen iron meteorite that has
not be cleaned and altered its surface by sellers for markets such as jewelry where a concept is being marketed and not what is
"natural"?

Rubbing mineral or other appropriate oil and if you are serious like hinted by Marcin, dry, quite gentle oven heat will darken the
metal, the later also mentioned by Marcin.

The initial fall fresh probably had a blue-gray color, like metal heated in a furnace. It is somewhat darker but the coloring is
the fusion crust. Your Campo has lost its fusion crust a long time ago. If you have an uncrusted ordinary chondrite fragment
would you also want to treat the matrix surface to turn it black? No! What you have exposed it the interior, in its natural
color. Now you want to make it dark.

OK, so you work so hard to removed all the oxides/rusts and chlorides, and now you want to treat it to return them. Only this time
you want to do it in a controlled fashion to fake the look of natural weathering.

Let us look what nature does. If it is fresh and dry, it can blacken and leave intact real fusion crust. Most likely though, it
will fall in a humid environment and rust orange and form some surface scale or shale. Sometimes you can get a tough rather
orange, near black, coating like Gibeons can appear on the market. But let's instead think of natural.

WHAT IS NATURAL? (asks Pilate!) Natural is a very gradual and slow process in which oxidation takes place, perhaps not too deeply
as to preserve smooth fusion crust in many finds and falls. It requires many many cycles of: oxidize lightly, oxidize uniformly,
clean (perhaps by wind abrasion and washed by distilled rain, even acid rain is effective.

Now you want to falsely reproduce that process on the matrix of a long rusted meteorite that has been pickled in aggressive caustic
chemicals. That's gross! It is like skinning off the hide of an animal and then coloring its remaining carcass the color of fur
for display instead of the natural colors of the muscles, fats and organs.

OK, but you still want to do it and don't agree with me. There are more problems. The naturally colored meteorites that are black
or orange and have little to no scaling and original layers of fusion crust at the least alpha-2 layer, may be significantly
impervious to seepage, but your Campo has already developed cracks, faults internal cavities from rot that was removed, due to
thousands of years un soil and rain, powerful roots, expansion and contraction by temperature changes, and general oxidative
terrestrial processes, solubilization of corrosive catalysts you.ve removed, you hope.

My point is you can color it however you want, but the fake coloring will be misleading, it will not have inside a
weathering-naturally stabilized meteorite and its internals due to their porous and fissured nature will not be as represented.
The more you do to an iron to make a faux patina, possibly the more you will need to work to redo regularly. The more it is
handled the more contaminants will get into it from sweat, etc. And!!! to make that false patina fool those to think it closer to
natural, you must dig into the surface of your material and oxidize it in a controlled manner, further weathering the piece of
bright matrix you cut (not with a saw but with chemicals).

The simplest things are: degrease with acetone if you are serious, then dry gentle heat a few hours followed by a good oil and you
will build up a light protective oxidation layer. If you use any of the aggressive chemicals you have mentioned after cleaning you
will reintroduce them. This is not a smooth surface you can just wipe them off. The get sucked in.

Finally upon removing from the oven you can instead soak them like hot potatoes in hot paraffin or other of these microcrystalline
waxes and oils. Hot, so it is absorbed into all those crevices that have been created by you removing the oxides and nature's
ambient forces beating the buried meteorite. The a little of the oil when all is cooled every now and then wont's hurt on the
surface and is the easiest way to keep things in check.

Hope that helps more! I apologize for my point of view but it is based on my idea of what a meteorite "should look like" which is
an emotional concept and I agree here that this is only my personal opinion, authentically conserving whatever characteristics of
the locality possible, and balancing that with preventing rampant oxidation. It is like cleaning coins. The only thin worse than
a cleaned coin is one that has been cleaned and then colored in some way to hid the fact it was cleaned, usually to sell for more
as a coin that never was cleaned will fetch from buyers.

Other options besides paint, are VCI systems to preserve professionally used by some hard core collectors, and electroplating
metals used for jewelry ... You can even try silver which will be initially bright but will soon turn very black!

My best,
Doug
(Feeling like H.H.Nininger now when he bellyached about people etching iron meteorites with a border of shellac on the slices to
leave a very "unnatural" etch of the slice. He felt this would be detrimental to people understanding what a meteorite truly
looked like and do a disservice to meteoritics. Notwithstanding, this practice had become popular amount some nowadays as ol' H.H.
rolls over...)


-----Original Message-----
From: Francesco Moser via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: Meteorite-list <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sat, Nov 26, 2016 11:20 am
Subject: [meteorite-list] R: iron meteorite natural color

Marcin and Doug!
Thanks for your replys!

Ok, I understand what you mean about the authenticity of color.
For sure the desert varnish of some iron meteorite like Gibeon or Henbury is the most natural looking for a find (not fall)
meteorite.
But old and buried meteorite like Muonionalusta or Campo have a very thick rust and oxide crust, I suppose no one want to have that
on his irons.
So after remove and clean all the rust shale what remains? Grey nude iron ... it is absolutely not natural!!!
So for me on this type of meteorite the black surface is something better that the nude iron, isn't?
Of course I don't want to paint the meteorite, just convert the nude grey iron to dark.
How it is possible? With oil?

All the Campo that are on the market have nude dark iron on the surface, how can I reach the same looking starting from nude grey
iron results of sand blasting?

Thanks


Ciao

<x>x<x>x<x>
Francesco


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Meteorite-list [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Per conto di Marcin Cimala - POLANDMET via Meteorite-list
Inviato: gioved? 24 novembre 2016 23:42
A: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Oggetto: Re: [meteorite-list] iron meteorite natural color

> Hello,
> I have a question.
> As we know an iron meteorite, such like Campo del Cielo for example,
> have a black surface.
> I have here a deeply rusted Campo, I'm planning to remove rust with a
> sand blasting process.
> But with this I will obtain a greysh surface, like naked iron, the
> same color of a slice.
> Not really a natural color for the exterior of an iron meteorite and
> also not aestetically pretty, looks too artificial for me.
> There is something to do for restore the original black color?
> Or it's better to remove the rust with a traditional steel brush,
> maybe with a drill ???
>
> Tips for mechanical or chemical process are welkomme!!!
> I can try with the classical NaOh bath, I have also Phosphoric, Citric
> and Oxalic acid :)
>
> Thanks
> <x>x<x>x<x>
> Francesco

Hah good question Francesco. But what is natural color of meteorite at all ?

Desert sandblasted NWA is not a real looking meteorite? Should I paint them black to be looking like a real meteorites ? Poor
Dhofars....
This is what Im fighting long time. Strange stereotype that meteorite MUST BE BLACK outside, WHY ?

When You like Your girlfrend ? When he smile to You with his pretty face or when she put ton of Max Factor chemicals on it??

I have always strange taste, different than most of collectors. For me, if specimen have crust must be black or black with rusty
patina. If meteorite have no more crust like Campo, why to "paint" it to black to looks like Sikhote ? Then You will see paint, not
Your meteorite. I only can imagine what strange things they do to clean Campo and look it like that. LOL

OK now a few tips.
As I understand Your Campo is a complete specimen ? To remove deep rust You must use electrochemical cleaning + brush + small
hammer. Then You will get mostly cleaned meteorite with BLACK remains of rust that will make Your meteorite looks REAL.Then heat it
and put alot of oil to make it looks fresh and oriented :)

-----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]----[ +48 793567667 ]----- http://www.Meteoryty.pl marcin(at)meteoryty.pl
http://www.PolandMET.com marcin(at)polandmet.com
--------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------



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Received on Tue 29 Nov 2016 02:30:11 AM PST