[meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride

From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <*meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:24:32 -0500 Message-ID: <CAKBPJW8L0AAAki-jiS+0Vhah+O=4OfX7SupDZOD1JqfWh1SekA_at_mail.gmail.com> · meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com

-- 
*************************************************
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook -  http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
***************************************************
On 1/28/12, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> wrote:
> Thanks for that MSDS Steve.  So useful for the properties of ferric
> chloride conveniently in your link.
>
> One more thing to the discussion which IMO is constructive and useful
> to anyone considering etching with some practical numbers but by no
> means intended to be a manual sicne there are many variations that are
> successful - the objective is simply to eat metal in a uniform and
> contriolled manner ...  But first a comment on the water in etchants:
>
> Great all the info on these MSDSs...
>
> for example, Steve's MSDS lists the composition of the Ferric Chloride
> etchant:
>
> 9   % ferric chloride hexahydrate
> 91 % water
>
> So this particular ferric chloride solution, quite a typical one, is
> 94.6% water!
>
> It is low grade if you buy circuit board etchant complete with all the
> unfiltered contaminants that are permissible and which can get into the
> meteorite and contaminate it.  It seems a bit much to me that so many
> people worry about water getting in the meteorites with the nitric acid
> procedure and for this reason demand pure alcohol, etc., and then some
> other (or even the same) people etch with a solution that is 95% water
> and don't think twice.
>
> That is the reason I recommend a stock of 2 N to 3 N nitric acid which
> is relatively mild and with, eg., a 50:50 dilution upon etching will
> give something in the neighborhood of 6% on the low side if I remember
> the math right just now, ignoring any (insignificant) density change.
> If we go on the side of extra caution to avoid any potential criticism,
> and have the patience and use the 2 N solution, a 50:50 w:w mix with
> even pure ethanol might still result in around a nitric
> acid:ethanol:water ratio of 6%:50%:44%.  That's 44% water.  If you used
> 50% ethanol (100 proof) you would be 69% water or so.  Still well below
> the 95% water used in FeCl3 etching.
>
> On the other hand, even concentrated nitric acid mixed with pure 200
> proof (100%) ethanol will yield a solution of a few percent water at
> etching concentrations.  I just don't see the benefit of worrying over
> minimizing so much the water and making in favor of purehydroscopic
> alcohol, since there is plenty of water around anyway.  Perhaps someone
> else has a good explanation, but I don't know it.  No benefit that
> three successive drying/alcohol bath cycles couldn't erase much better
> anyway and when you consider the humidity in the atmosphere it all
> becomes 'why bother?' for specimens that aren't hermetically sealed.
>
> Then there is the suggestion of using dilute Nitric Acid alone, no
> alcohol to deal with mixing and a 3 N stock solution is perfect to make
> the range of concentrations you would want to etch.  3 N nitric is
> probably something above 15% nitric acid, which means it is something
> like 85% water.  If you are used to this and have a procedure, you
> could use this solution straight, however the best is probably a 50/50
> dilution with water.
>
> So the above are my recommendations spelled out.  If anyone uses any
> different concentrations with the straight acid it would be nice to
> hear about.  Solutions of 1.5 to 3.0 N nitric acid are much safer to
> handle that muriatic acid and if it gets on you, a quick rinse is a
> quick solution.  The one major rule is to always wear eye protection.
> I've had concentrate hydrochloric acid go into my eye from a splash as
> a kid and there was no ill effect except on the nerves, but I suspect
> Nitric acid is more risky in the eye.  Visine eyedrops contain
> hydrochloric acid I think, but nitric is another story if the burn scar
> on my wrist from a lab accident is any indication, though that was
> supercharged nitric acid, not the regular concentrated stuff in this
> thread.  The fuming nitric acid I made was in the 90% to 100% range,
> bubbles like the movies mad scientist lab and is as scary as any
> chemical possibly can be and it will eat flesh green upon contact.
>
> Anyway, that gives somewhat a description of the dangers of
> concentrated nitric acid and the relative mildness of the recommended
> low concentrations.  If you are extremely concerned you could drop it
> down to 1 N, but I find that too slow for me unless I warm the
> solution.  There are a lot of trade offs going on behind the scenes.  A
> slow etch is usually more uniform, prettier, but there is more time for
> something to go wrong, for some electrochemical reaction to discolor
> the meteorite and for contaminants to enter the micro fissures,, get
> around the inclusions, etc.  That's why I'm on the higher side, and
> that is also why FeCl3 is also so popular since it's usually formulated
> for fast results.  Plus at some point economy becomes important since
> the difference in price between 1 N, 2 N and 3 N nitric acid prices is
> not much and diluting these already pretty dilute acids is a piece of
> cake vs. dealing with the concentrated stuff.
>
> Hope that is helpful tio someone and if you have experience with
> different temperatures / concentrations / ratios please post!  If there
> are any errors be kind to correct them as it is late ;-)
>
> Kindest wisdhes
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
> To: markig <markig at westnet.com>; Meteorite-list
> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 11:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution msds ferric chloride
>
>
>
> http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886
>
> also may cause laurancite disease in irons or uncontrolled rusting
>
>
> cheers
> steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
>> To: markig at westnet.com, Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com,
> "MexicoDoug"
> <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:59 AM
>> http://multietch.com/
>> cheers
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 1/28/12, Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
>> > To: markig at westnet.com,
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com,
>> "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 2:52 AM
>> >  hi! cheers!
>> > Steve Dunklee
>> > http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9925886
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- On Sat, 1/28/12, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
>> > > To: markig at westnet.com,
>> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > Date: Saturday, January 28, 2012, 12:46 AM
>> > > Hi Mark,
>> > >
>> > > "Would appreciate a reference for the nickel
>> chloride
>> > being
>> > > 15 times
>> > > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate."
>> > >
>> > > That's not what I wrote although it could be true
>> I
>> > have no
>> > > such reference to support the above.
>> > >
>> > > What I did write was:
>> > >
>> > > "Only Nickel chloride (a result of ferric
>> chloride
>> > etching)
>> > > is carcinogenic at levels
>> > > 15 times lower than those produced from nitric
>> acid
>> > > etching."
>> > >
>> > > There is a huge difference between what you
>> understood
>> > and
>> > > what I actually wrote as threshhold toxicity
>> levels
>> > don't
>> > > necessarily equate to activity factors.  This is
>> > > because the body has dozens of competing
>> homeostatic
>> > > (metabolic, immune/allergic, etc.) processes that
>> > relate to
>> > > detoxification and an imbalance occurs when that
>> one
>> > single
>> > > straw to many put on the camel breaks its back.
>> > >
>> > > The reference should be any MSDS (Material Safety
>> Data
>> > > Sheet), just check whichever one you have access
>> to or
>> > dig
>> > > up first.
>> > >
>> > > Toxicology, especially when it comes to
>> carcinogens is
>> > so
>> > > complex that I don't think anyone understands it,
>> or
>> > they
>> > > would already gotten a billion buck grant from the
>> NIH
>> > by
>> > > now.  It just comes in many small pieces.  I
>> share
>> > > your opinion that we should reference and I'm
>> sorry if
>> > I
>> > > just dumped all this information for discussion,
>> but it
>> > was
>> > > more useful that keeping i to myself.  I've not
>> found
>> > a
>> > > reasonable layman's treatise anywhere on the
>> subject so
>> > I
>> > > figured the met list was as good as it gets
>> without
>> > opening
>> > > yet another research project to compete with the
>> other
>> > ones
>> > > I've got floundering.
>> > >
>> > > Anyway, the exposure limits I mention I believe
>> are for
>> > lab
>> > > rats approximating other mammals, like humans.
>> > Again,
>> > > the more you get into this the more it's hard to
>> > muzzle
>> > > oneself becasue now we're getting further into
>> it:
>> > >
>> > > so - must ask, can you breath it in (probably not
>> in
>> > most
>> > > cases, but definiely cover your mouth, eyes, and
>> any
>> > other
>> > > open oriface such as a wound when doing this.
>> That
>> > > should be 'common knowledge' but really if doing
>> it for
>> > the
>> > > first time, maybe not.
>> > >
>> > > and - must ask, so how permeable is the skin to it
>> ...
>> > > becasue if one has a 15X lower threshhold but is
>> 15x
>> > more
>> > > difficult to uptake, then we'd have a wash.
>> Then
>> > there
>> > > are solubility issues, but these both look like
>> they
>> > are
>> > > well soluble, just a glance at the MSDS will
>> answer
>> > that.
>> > >
>> > > last here, but definitely not any closure, is;
>> what's
>> > the
>> > > significance of getting these things into ones
>> local
>> > > envoironment and the general environment (waters,
>> > soils,
>> > > air, etc.).  We don't think about this but doing
>> it
>> > out
>> > > on the concrete patio outside of the kitchen and
>> > tossing the
>> > > waste into the immediate area, it will dry and
>> become
>> > > particulate contaminants which over time the wind
>> will
>> > > distribute in the lungs of little boys playing
>> there,
>> > > through the kitchen window, etc.  Probably no
>> big
>> > deal
>> > > in most cases, but there is always that one case
>> that
>> > > something goes terribly wrong.  And getting back
>> to
>> > the
>> > > maximum 'permissible' exposure limit (sheesh, now
>> to
>> > add
>> > > residence time, cumulative properties in the body,
>> it's
>> > head
>> > > spinning).
>> > >
>> > > Which is why, in this case for a rat which is
>> assumed
>> > to
>> > > react as a human (but may not), at least we can
>> point
>> > a
>> > > finger at the threshold of toxicity, which itself
>> is a
>> > a
>> > > single point determined after half of the
>> subjects
>> > have
>> > > croaked, illustrating that half are just fine
>> whereas
>> > it is
>> > > toxic to half of them at even lower levels, or
>> > something
>> > > along tose lines.
>> > >
>> > > As for your other reference of isopropyl vs.
>> ethyl
>> > alcohols
>> > > and explosion hazards, I'm sorry but perhaps
>> someone
>> > else
>> > > has more time to develop this properly vs. this
>> > informal
>> > > discussion forum.  If I had time and a full lab,
>> I
>> > > would start by maing a ternary diagram of the two
>> > alcohols
>> > > and nitric acid, and plot the flash point of the
>> > mixture for
>> > > starters.  The information I saw was anecdotal
>> and
>> > not
>> > > rigorous nor very quantitative.  However I don't
>> > hacve
>> > > time to spend on this subject any more due to
>> personal
>> > > circumstances and recommend that you try
>> googling.
>> > > This is not a case of a proving beyond a
>> reasonable
>> > doubt
>> > > that it is more explosive.  However there are
>> enough
>> > > warnings out there thaty would seem to suggest
>> more
>> > violent
>> > > and higher incidence of isopropanol-HNO3 mixtures
>> than
>> > the
>> > > EtOH analog, since we are talking about personal
>> > > safety.  Clearly Isopropyl alcohol is similar
>> > > inproperties relating to etching that given the
>> more
>> > > widespread use in general metallurgy of EtOH, it's
>> the
>> > devil
>> > > we know better
>> > >
>> > > I'm convinced of the Isopropanol/ethanol issue all
>> I
>> > need to
>> > > be more vigilant.  But that doesn't mean I
>> wouldn't
>> > use
>> > > it if there was some reason to do that.  Rather
>> than
>> > > obsessing too much over a terribly complex issue
>> and
>> > coming
>> > > to the same inconclusion, I'd just make simple,
>> yet
>> > > effective modifications to my procedure -
>> > > Why deal with comncentrated nitric in a home
>> > environment at
>> > > all?  How silly!  You (general) want to save a
>> few
>> > > pennies at your own risk, pennywise --- just have
>> the
>> > > Hazardous Materials emergency number handy.
>> > Otherwise
>> > > buy the diluted acid= problem significantly
>> > minimized.
>> > > You want to make etchant?  Don't make such a
>> large
>> > > amount in a bottle/beaker at once.  Don't use
>> such an
>> > > excess when etching, experiment by painting it on
>> with
>> > a
>> > > brush instead - problem significantly minimuzed
>> ... and
>> > so
>> > > on.
>> > >
>> > > Hope this gives better insight.  Having THE
>> answer to
>> > > these things is too tall an order, yet experience
>> and
>> > common
>> > > sense are why other individuals can etch more
>> easily
>> > than
>> > > making scrambled eggs.  Our appreciation of risk
>> is
>> > > terribly distorted.  Once I was in a discussion
>> with
>> > > Sterling sopmewhere discussing this and he even
>> > referenced
>> > > someplace, proabbly wiki the bias I described had
>> a
>> > > name.  You know, the same one that evaluates
>> whether
>> > to
>> > > be frightened from falling asteroids vs. driving
>> to
>> > work in
>> > > the morning.  I'm still waiting for the thriller
>> > movie,
>> > > "Highway jaunt" where no rogue asteroids or
>> murderous
>> > > psychopats pass by, but Strawberry Shortcake girl
>> just
>> > takes
>> > > her car for a spin and suddenly every individual
>> in
>> > the
>> > > traffic stream has a compulsion to run over her on
>> her
>> > sweet
>> > > bicycle.  Point of the dumb example being the
>> high
>> > risk
>> > > we have experience has much lower fear factor than
>> the
>> > > almost non-existent risk which ends in carnage
>> and
>> > mahem,
>> > > even if a decision tree analysis shows that the
>> > friendly
>> > > risk is a million times more likely.
>> > >
>> > > Kindest wsihes
>> > > Doug
>> > >
>> > > PS I have stretched too much to participate in
>> this
>> > give
>> > > some other difficult responsibilities I ahve at
>> the
>> > m,oment
>> > > so I did my best and will likely retire for a
>> while to
>> > catch
>> > > up on things.
>> > >
>> > > PPS, After all this, I think my new etchant of
>> choice
>> > will
>> > > be Coca Cola.  No doubt it works or can be
>> tweaked
>> > to,
>> > > too.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Mark Grossman <markig at westnet.com>
>> > > To: nf114ec <nf114ec at npgcable.com>;
>> > > meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
>> > > MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm
>> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > Couple of thoughts.
>> > >
>> > > Mark's Law:
>> > >
>> > > If you're standing in the exact same spot as
>> someone
>> > else
>> > > when a mixture of
>> > > nitric acid and ethanol explodes, the
>> sensitivities of
>> > the
>> > > two individuals
>> > > to harm are always the same. :-)
>> > >
>> > > Both nickel chloride and nickel nitrate are
>> soluble
>> > nickel
>> > > compounds, and as
>> > > far as carcinogenicity goes, the American
>> Conference
>> > of
>> > > Governmental
>> > > Industrial Hygienists and the International Agency
>> for
>> > > Research on Cancer
>> > > group the two compounds together.  As far as I
>> am
>> > > aware, there was no
>> > > singling out of nickel chloride as being 15 times
>> more
>> > > carcinogenic than
>> > > nickel nitrate - you indicated both are products
>> of
>> > etching
>> > > - one from
>> > > ferric chloride and the other from nitric acid.
>> The
>> > > insoluble oxides of
>> > > nickel are more carcinogenic, but that's not the
>> > compounds
>> > > you are referring
>> > > to.  Would appreciate a reference for the nickel
>> > > chloride being 15 times
>> > > more carcinogenic than soluble nickel nitrate.
>> > >
>> > > Similarly, would appreciate a reference to
>> isopropyl
>> > alcohol
>> > > being more
>> > > dangerous to use for etching with nitric acid
>> than
>> > ethanol,
>> > > under the same
>> > > set of conditions.  Why is isopropyl alcohol
>> more
>> > prone
>> > > to a "freak"
>> > > explosion or "blow up" than ethanol?  Explosions
>> with
>> > > concentrated nitric
>> > > acid and ethanol are well-documented.
>> > >
>> > > Now I am not relying on Wikipedia as an academic
>> > reference,
>> > > but I think the
>> > > information contained on the webpage is worthy of
>> > discussion
>> > > and/or
>> > > criticism.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital and the
> mention of
>> > > the
>> > > hazards associated with 5 and 10 percent
>> solutions.
>> > > This information
>> > > appears to come from Bretherick, which is a
>> pretty
>> > good
>> > > chemical reference
>> > > that I have used in the past (see
>> > > http://www.ab.ust.hk/hseo/tips/ls/ls005.htm).
>> > >
>> > > Reading Material Safety Data Sheets should always
>> be
>> > > required - but realize
>> > > that many are inadequate and often do not list or
>> spell
>> > out
>> > > the safety
>> > > precautions which should be employed.
>> > >
>> > > A lot of technical information was contained in
>> the
>> > last few
>> > > emails, and if
>> > > we all agree that respect for chemicals is
>> critical,
>> > then it
>> > > would be useful
>> > > to confirm the facts.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks!
>> > >
>> > > Mark
>> > >
>> > > Mark Grossman
>> > > Meteorite Manuscripts
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > To: <nf114ec at npgcable.com>;
>> > > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:02 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching solution
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Hi Jim,
>> > > >
>> > > > My respects to all the ferric chloride lovers
>> out
>> > there
>> > > and
>> > > especially Ron
>> > > > Hartman, bless him.  A blanket statement of
>> a
>> > > "better etch" is pretty
>> > > > meaningless.  I recall asking Arcady who had
>> all
>> > > the Seymchan several
>> > > > years back why all of his specimens were
>> etched
>> > so
>> > > deeply that they
>> > > looked
>> > > > like someone chiseled the etch into them and
>> then
>> > put
>> > > on a matte
>> > > > clearcoat.  He said, the customers prefer a
>> deep
>> > > etch.  I thought it
>> > > was
>> > > > butt ugly (not to mention a more discrete
>> etching
>> > such
>> > > as by mild
>> > > nitric
>> > > > acid's slow action introduces far less
>> nucleation
>> > sites
>> > > for
>> > > oxidation).
>> > > > There are so many factors.
>> > > >
>> > > > If the iron chloride etch were better it
>> wouldn't
>> > hurt
>> > > to send those
>> > > > conclusions to the Smithsonian, British
>> Museum,
>> > Weiner
>> > >
>> > > Naturhistorisches
>> > > > Museum, Max-Planck-Institut f?r Chemie (or
>> > whatever
>> > > its called now)
>> > > > Collection, Paris Mus?um National
>> d'Histoire
>> > > Naturelle, etc. for
>> > > comment.
>> > > > ;-)
>> > > >
>> > > > BTW, there are many variables not realated to
>> the
>> > etch
>> > > to consider.
>> > > > Though ferric chloride is 'easier', when it
>> comes
>> > to
>> > > mixing up, it
>> > > doesn't
>> > > > mean it is less toxic in other ways.  Ever
>> > wonder
>> > > if it was legal or
>> > > smart
>> > > > to pour spent solution down the drain or into
>> the
>> > > soils? Nickel
>> > > chloride
>> > > > and nickel nitrate (produced in etching) are
>> both
>> > > mutagenic.  Only
>> > > Nickel
>> > > > chloride (a result of ferric chloride
>> etching) is
>> > > carcinogenic at
>> > > levels
>> > > > 15 times lower than those produced from
>> nitric
>> > acid
>> > > etching.  But
>> > > with all
>> > > > the other heavy metal ions in iron
>> meteorites,
>> > again,
>> > > respect for the
>> > > > chemical is important regardless of what
>> risks
>> > are
>> > > perceived - it's
>> > > never
>> > > > the full story and like smoking, everyone
>> doesn't
>> > even
>> > > have equal
>> > > > sensitivity.
>> > > >
>> > > > Kindest wishes
>> > > > Douh
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > From: Jim Wooddell <nf114ec at npgcable.com>
>> > > > To: Meteorite-List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > > Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 6:48 am
>> > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
>> solution
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > I believe there was an article by Hartman a
>> few
>> > years
>> > > back about the
>> > > use
>> > > > of
>> > > > ferric chloride.  The conclusion was that
>> it
>> > gave
>> > > a better etch???  I
>> > > > think
>> > > > it was in Meteorite-Times.
>> > > >
>> > > > Jim
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Jim Wooddell
>> > > > http://k7wfr
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > > To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
>> > > <markig at westnet.com>;
>> > > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > > Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 1:49 AM
>> > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
>> solution
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> "Besides water, I'm suspecting Nitric +
>> > acetone
>> > > (Nitkeytone ?) and
>> > > > any
>> > > >> number of other solvents would work"
>> > > >>
>> > > >> OK, don'rt bother with this one!  I
>> just
>> > did;
>> > > It actually etches, but
>> > > >> leaves a yucky finish.  The fumes are
>> no
>> > worse
>> > > than other nitals,
>> > > > though I
>> > > >> wouldn't want to breath much of them
>> until I
>> > knew
>> > > more; but there
>> > > > didn't
>> > > >> seem to be any decomposition.  I used
>> > reagent
>> > > grade acetone to avoid
>> > > >> possibly nasty impurities, and the
>> nitric
>> > acid
>> > > concentration only
>> > > > 3.9%
>> > > >> just in case I hit a flash point, full
>> face
>> > shield
>> > > and a fan venting
>> > > > right
>> > > >> out the door.  Nice to have had an 81 F
>> day
>> > > today and still its warm
>> > > >> enough to open the door ;-) nice etch,
>> > terrible
>> > > residue.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Kindest wishes
>> > > >> Doug
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > >> To: markig <markig at westnet.com>;
>> > > meteoritesnorth
>> > > >> <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > meteorite-list
>> > > >> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 3:11 am
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
>> > solution
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> "explosive"
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Definitely caution when playing around
>> with
>> > > corrosives is of the
>> > > first
>> > > >> order...that said,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> sure, ethanol is a racing car engine fuel
>> and
>> > under
>> > > the right
>> > > >> conditions can combust; But people drink
>> it
>> > even
>> > > straight...
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Many things we do have risks associated
>> with
>> > them
>> > > some very serious
>> > > > and
>> > > >> definitely we must respect all reagents
>> > especially
>> > > corrosives like
>> > > >> nitric acid.  For example, many people
>> enjoy
>> > > fireworks.  Yet,
>> > > > fireworks
>> > > >> are explosive and dangerous if you put
>> them
>> > near
>> > > sparks or heat,or
>> > > try
>> > > >> to light them with a charcoal grill.
>> And
>> > > obviously gasoline combusts
>> > > >> too yet mechanics and Dads everywhere use
>> it
>> > to
>> > > clean hands and metal
>> > > >> parts and also have arc welders nearby.
>> Or
>> > > sulfuric acid inside a
>> > > car
>> > > >> battery - don't get it on your bikini
>> when
>> > working
>> > > on the car!  If
>> > > you
>> > > >> are going to use anything, it needs to be
>> done
>> > with
>> > > respect and a
>> > > > quick
>> > > >> read of the MSDS of whatever chemicals
>> you
>> > are
>> > > using... (and don't
>> > > >> trust everything you read on a
>> discussion
>> > l;ist
>> > > posted at 3 AM)
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is not a good idea to have
>> concentrated
>> > nitric
>> > > acid and ignore the
>> > > >> label, for example and my heart goes out
>> to
>> > Anita
>> > > on that.  Depends
>> > > > the
>> > > >> kind of person you are.  When I make my
>> > > smoothie in the morning I use
>> > > >> fresh cherries as one of 18-20
>> ingredients and
>> > a
>> > > preparation that
>> > > > takes
>> > > >> an hour.  It's life threatening if I
>> > > accidentally put a pit in my
>> > > >> blender (which can easily liquify
>> meteorites,
>> > it's
>> > > so powerful) due
>> > > to
>> > > >> the specialized needs of a family member
>> who
>> > cannot
>> > > eat.  So I double
>> > > >> count the cherries first, count the pits
>> as I
>> > punch
>> > > them out, and
>> > > then
>> > > >> count them once again when I dispose of
>> > them.
>> > > No shortcuts, All
>> > > > common
>> > > >> sense!
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Bart Simpson's pet python once made nital
>> in
>> > an
>> > > episode of The
>> > > >> Simpsons, which is amusing if you haven't
>> had
>> > a bad
>> > > experience you
>> > > >> can't laugh about.... I think the
>> writers
>> > were
>> > > Caltech rejects that
>> > > > had
>> > > >> to go to MIT and have to do this to
>> humor
>> > > themselves, this wasn't the
>> > > >> only snarky chemistry episode.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> (episode: Stop or my Dog will Shoot!)
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Here's the link:
>> > > >>
>> > > >> http://video.i.ua/user/810302/8185/35583/
>> > > >>
>> > > >> it take a little time to stream, but
>> once
>> > ready the
>> > > scene is at the
>> > > >> 17:49 minute:seconds mark.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ... and that' why in my summary which I
>> did
>> > much
>> > > too quickly to be
>> > > >> complete, I suggest that you use water,
>> that
>> > is to
>> > > say, NitH20,. or
>> > > as
>> > > >> it's commonly known just dilute Nitric
>> Acid,
>> > rather
>> > > tha alcohols to
>> > > >> develop your method.  Nothing wrong
>> with
>> > > water, it is really getting
>> > > a
>> > > >> bum wrap and it is GRAS ;-)  It is what
>> > > everyone that is using FeCl3
>> > > > is
>> > > >> using as a diluent, too.  For the HNO3
>> the
>> > 3.0
>> > > N concentration works
>> > > >> best for me.  Absolutely no need to buy
>> > > concentrated acid and you can
>> > > >> avoid all the issues of what to add to
>> what
>> > and no
>> > > need for Hazmet
>> > > >> backup.  You can buy it already diluted,
>> get
>> > > the same benefit of a
>> > > >> nitric acid etch (alcohol doesn't etch,
>> it's
>> > only a
>> > > carrier and
>> > > >> diluent).  Just crank up the oven to
>> the
>> > > higher end of a safe drying
>> > > >> temperature.  That's the only real
>> benefit
>> > of
>> > > alcohol in my opinion -
>> > > >> it allows a cooler drying which can
>> povide a
>> > nicer
>> > > (lower oxdation
>> > > >> residue on the virgin etched surface, but
>> now
>> > we
>> > > are staerting rally
>> > > > to
>> > > >> split hairs...IMO.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Speaking of diluents, there's no reason
>> nital
>> > > (alcohol) is special as
>> > > > a
>> > > >> diluent.  Besides water, I'm suspecting
>> > Nitric
>> > > + acetone (Nitkeytone
>> > > > ?)
>> > > >> and any number of other solvents would
>> work
>> > fine if
>> > > not be hiding a
>> > > >> secret for even a better etching
>> solution.
>> > > Sure acetone is flammable
>> > > >> and can give you the willies too, you
>> can't
>> > win but
>> > > that doesn't stop
>> > > >> women who understand the chemical they
>> use
>> > from
>> > > putting it on their
>> > > >> fingernails ;-) granted not with acid,
>> though
>> > I bet
>> > > some do
>> > > >> inadvertantly mix it with salycilic acid
>> > solution
>> > > when disolving
>> > > > excess
>> > > >> skin ;-), which if not used properly
>> could
>> > > chemically remove a lot of
>> > > >> flesh ...
>> > > >> Kindest wishes
>> > > >> Doug
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: Mark Grossman <markig at westnet.com>
>> > > >> To: MexicoDoug <MexicoDoug at aim.com>;
>> > > meteoritesnorth
>> > > >> <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > meteorite-list
>> > > >> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 12:32 am
>> > > >> Subject: Fw: [meteorite-list] Etching
>> > solution
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Did a quick search on the internet.
>> Read
>> > this
>> > > tale from the
>> > > Meteorite
>> > > >> Association of Georgia regarding the
>> hazards
>> > of
>> > > mixing nitric acid
>> > > and
>> > > >> ethanol:
>> > > >>
> http://www.meteoriteassociationofgeorgia.org/article-052007.htm.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Mark
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Mark Grossman
>> > > >> Meteorite Manuscripts
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >> From: "Mark Grossman" <markig at westnet.com>
>> > > >> To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
>> > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > >> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:40
>> PM
>> > > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Etching
>> > solution
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> I don't know all of the details of
>> the
>> > etching
>> > > process, but a word of
>> > > >>> caution - mixing concentrated nitric
>> acid
>> > with
>> > > ethanol can result in
>> > > >> an
>> > > >>> explosion and a fire.  I've
>> witnessed
>> > the
>> > > results of the reaction
>> > > when
>> > > >>> someone inadvertently mixed the two
>> in a
>> > lab
>> > > years ago.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Mark
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Mark Grossman
>> > > >>> Meteorite Manuscripts
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > > >>> From: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > >>> To: <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
>> > > <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > >>> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > >>> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012
>> 11:23 PM
>> > > >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
>> Etching
>> > solution
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>> PS - if you don't have a hood or
>> > other
>> > > exhaust, the methyl alcohol
>> > > >> could
>> > > >>>> also be dangerous becasue the
>> liver
>> > breaks
>> > > it down into toxins and
>> > > >> you
>> > > >>>> will inhale some of it.  That's
>> > > another reason why I use ethanol in
>> > > >> the
>> > > >>>> oven, and frankly much more
>> important
>> > a
>> > > reason than saving a few
>> > > >> pennies
>> > > >>>> ;-)  You can consider the
>> residence
>> > > time of the toxins in your
>> > > >> system to
>> > > >>>> be as long as a week, so if your
>> are
>> > doing
>> > > etxching all day
>> > > long,and
>> > > >> are
>> > > >>>> using methanol nital you
>> definitely
>> > need a
>> > > very well ventilated
>> > > >> place,
>> > > >>>> and methanol is sneaky worthy of
>> a
>> > CSI
>> > > episode of an innocent who
>> > > >> done it
>> > > >>>> since the syptoms and critical
>> second
>> > hit
>> > > can be stealth and barely
>> > > >>>> naseaous for the first.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> I know you didn't ask about
>> methyl
>> > alcohol,
>> > > but its good to see the
>> > > >> 4
>> > > >>>> common solcvent
>> benefits/liabilities
>> > side
>> > > by side, at least my take
>> > > >> on
>> > > >>>> it. Anyway, you can see why
>> ethyl
>> > alcohol
>> > > iis usually preferred.  I
>> > > >> just
>> > > >>>> checkethe azeotrophes
>> andisopropyl is
>> > only
>> > > 2.3 C above ethanol
>> > > >> mixtures
>> > > >>>> so its ability to remove water
>> would
>> > be
>> > > very similar in the oven,
>> > > >> the
>> > > >>>> last thing to look up to decide
>> > > theoretically approximating the
>> > > >>>> penetrating ability as related to
>> the
>> > > surface tension of the
>> > > alcohol
>> > > >>>> (just a guess) what is the
>> bestest
>> > alcohol
>> > > would be to check the
>> > > >> surface
>> > > >>>> tension.  I just did and all
>> three
>> > > alcohols are nearly 4 times that
>> > > >> of
>> > > >>>> water and within 5% o each other,
>> so
>> > I
>> > > would think that on
>> > > >> penetrating
>> > > >>>> ability they are probably all
>> tied
>> > and
>> > > would argue all factors
>> > > >> considered
>> > > >>>> ethanol is best since the worst
>> you
>> > get is
>> > > a standard hangover in
>> > > >>>> standard use conditions, and to
>> get a
>> > freak
>> > > explosion from EtOH
>> > > >> mixtures
>> > > >>>> with acid is minimal compared to
>> > > isopropyl.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Ferric chloride of course doesn't
>> have
>> > the
>> > > toxicity not
>> > > >> flammability, but
>> > > >>>> it stains like heck and with
>> proper
>> > respect
>> > > for the reagents plus a
>> > > >>>> little experience, like
>> everything
>> > else the
>> > > risks are minimized.
>> > > >> That's
>> > > >>>> another reason to start with
>> dilute
>> > nitric
>> > > which I highly recommend
>> > > >> until
>> > > >>>> you have the bugs worked out of
>> the
>> > etching
>> > > "assembly line", ie,
>> > > >> method
>> > > >>>> you find best for your work.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Good luck,
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Kindest wshes
>> > > >>>> Doug.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >>>> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > >>>> To: meteoritesnorth <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>;
>> > > Meteorite-list
>> > > >>>> <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 10:30 pm
>> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
>> Etching
>> > > solution
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Craig,
>> > > >>>> Let me add (the message actually
>> got
>> > away
>> > > before being finished as
>> > > I
>> > > >>>> write piecemeal and then send)
>> that as
>> > far
>> > > as etching it works
>> > > fine,
>> > > >>>> but if you look at the series of
>> > alcohols,
>> > > methyl (bp = 65 C),
>> > > ethyl
>> > > >>>> (bp = 78 C) and isoproply alcohol
>> (bp
>> > = 83
>> > > C), methyl alcohol
>> > > >>>> (methanol) is by far the safest
>> until
>> > you
>> > > get a lot of experience
>> > > >>>> working with these under a
>> hood.
>> > > "Ethyl nital" is mildly flammable
>> > > >> in
>> > > >>>> and Isopropyl nital is pretty
>> > dangerous
>> > > since if can blow up in
>> > > >> certain
>> > > >>>> conditions that aren't difficult
>> to
>> > > arrange.  Nothing to do with
>> > > the
>> > > >>>> etching results which are left
>> to
>> > trial and
>> > > error, but rather the
>> > > >>>> safety which I should have
>> mentioned.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> While all the alcohols work fine,
>> keep
>> > in
>> > > mind two of the factors
>> > > > you
>> > > >>>> are working with are
>> > miscibility/penetrant
>> > > ability and vapor
>> > > >> pressure.
>> > > >>>> Vapor pressure you can estimate
>> by
>> > boiling
>> > > point - lower bp is a
>> > > >> higher
>> > > >>>> vp.  The higher vp the quicker
>> it
>> > will
>> > > evaporate out, so methanol
>> > > >> would
>> > > >>>> seem to have the advantage,
>> thought
>> > it
>> > > might form some azeotropes
>> > > > and
>> > > >>>> stay in longer, as could the
>> rest
>> > without
>> > > looking this up (no time
>> > > > at
>> > > >>>> the moment).
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> To the series of three common
>> alcohols
>> > you
>> > > could just add water bp
>> > > =
>> > > >>>> 100 and consider it almost as a
>> > continuim
>> > > and play with the you
>> > > like
>> > > >>>> which will influence drying time
>> > among
>> > > other important parameters.
>> > > > I
>> > > >>>> use methanol and later rinse
>> with
>> > ethanol
>> > > (cheaper for me), which
>> > > is
>> > > >>>> the reverse of good drying
>> practice I
>> > would
>> > > think, but half of the
>> > > >> time
>> > > >>>> I just use the diluted acid at 2
>> - 3
>> > N.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Hope that was a better answer,
>> sorry
>> > for
>> > > not finishing the first
>> > > >>>> kindest wishes
>> > > >>>> Doug
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >>>> From: Craig Moody <meteoritesnorth at hotmail.ca>
>> > > >>>> To: mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
>> > > >>>> Sent: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 9:42 pm
>> > > >>>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list]
>> Etching
>> > > solution
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Much appreciated Doug, Thank
>> you!  I
>> > > have lots of 99% around.
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Craig
>> > > >>>>
>> > > ______________________________________________
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Visit the Archives at
>> > > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>>
>> > > ______________________________________________
>> > > >>>>
>> > > >>>> Visit the Archives at
>> > > >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> Visit the Archives at
>> > > >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Visit the Archives at
>> > > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > >> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Visit the Archives at
>> > > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > >> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> ______________________________________________
>> > > >
>> > > > Visit the Archives at
>> > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> ______________________________________________
>> > > >
>> > > > Visit the Archives at
>> > > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ______________________________________________
>> > >
>> > > Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> > >
>> > ______________________________________________
>> >
>> > Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> ______________________________________________
>>
>> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>
> ______________________________________________
>
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>