[meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 21:49:24 +0100
Message-ID: <018601cdd0ce$837a4080$8a6ec180$_at_de>

Hi there Nick,

>But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3:
>"Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles
of law under >which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they
have "acceded" to the land.

An astonishing statement.
As much as I investigated laws, in all the years I was able to find so far
only 3 (three) European laws, explicitly giving "meteorites" in their
wordings.

Denmark (where the museum has to decide, whether it is a "Dannekrae" - in
that case the finder gets a reward (in practice the museum is buying the
stone from the finder). Else he can keep it. And the question of the
landowner is not mentioned.)

Poland (came later than Schmidt. No ownership questions. Meteorites
(national and international) ones need an export permit).

Slovakia (finder has to announce it to the local environment agency and gets
a title as finder. If he then doesn't hear for (would have to look up again)
more than 3 months nothing again from that office, he is the owner. Else he
gets a reward of 10% of the market value).

As stated here so often, also the piece of information Schmitt gave about
Switzerland and New Zealand is incorrect, and the piece of information about
India doubtful (if you read the Indian constitution still in place and
certainly over-ruling administrative orders from the colonial times).

All in all I came to the conclusion, that Schmitt hasn't read most of the
laws (if he gives the ??) at all, neither he investigated the reports, he
received from third parties (obviously legal laypeople), whether they are
wrong or true.

Meteorites are a too rare and exotic thing, that they would enter written
law in Western Europe countries.
The question mainly is, what for a "res" a meteorite is legally, in which
drawers you can sort them, the individual laws of each country allow.

If I reckon meteorites among narcotics or to explosives, then certainly
there are certain restrictions.
Nothing else makes Schmitt.
Btw. his far-fetched interpretation of the UN-convention of 1970, if you use
exactly the same method of generous ellipsis in quoting, like Schmitt did,
You'll find, that e.g. bananas are protected moveable cultural heritage.

Additional, thanks god, in all countries here in Western Europe in case a
court has to decide, what for an object a meteorite is in meaning of the
national law, and not Mr.Schmitt.

Well, if I as a complete and brute layman am able to a) find the individual
laws and b) to read and to understand them, then I dare to say, that
Schmitt's work is bs. (pardon me).


>What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion

Not Schmitt, but google is the enemy.
Unfortunately the first hits delivered for a query for laws and meteorites
lead directly to Schmitt's bad paper. (Even more unfortunately, that it was
published (and even more and more unfortunately not peer-reviewed) in the
official organ of the meteoritical society, MAPS.)


So whenever a journalist seeks a story around a new fall,
he will read Schmitt's paper.
So unwantedly Schmitt is the reason, that some of my neighbours could look
at me like a member of a drug or weapon dealers cartel, because some lousy
clowns in NYT or BBC, as it happened,
jumped from Schmitt's stuff to the conclusions necessary to make a story,
where no story is.

>Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article..

Good idea, but a scientist or even better a meteoricist has to write that.
Hunters, dealers and collectors are not regarded to be part of the academic
world,
their opinion therefore is not interesting and their expertise doubtful.

Best!
Martin


 

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Nicholas
Gessler, Ph.D.
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2012 21:01
An: Yinan Wang; Jim Strope
Cc: meteorite central
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
Wichtigkeit: Hoch

>From my perspective, I think we ought not to go off half-cocked.
Apparently, that is what the BLM has done, and it has gotten no one
anywhere.

But note what Schmitt has written on page B6, paragraph 3:
"Most Western European countries... have civil codes laying down principles
of law under which meteorites are owned by the landowner as long as they
have "acceded" to the land. A meteorite resting on the surface is,
arguably, owned by the finder taking possession of it, subject to trespass
issues."
Read this carefully!

I think it would be worthwhile to first do a profile on Schmitt.
Solicitors present arguments and opinions, they do not conduct scientific
and sociological investigations of the subject. Perhaps we need a societal
and cultural perspective on the issue?
Who were his 20 informants? As an anthropologist, his investigation falls
way short of unbiased research.
What relevance is Schmitt's Canadian opinion to US Law?
Have we learned nothing in ten years? Since then the public has become
better informed, the public has made major contributions, and the
"scientific community" has expanded to include collectors, educators and
dealers...

Perhaps it's time for another scholarly article based upon scientific
evidence to be submitted to the Meteoritics and Planetary Science? One that
contains statistics on how many meteorites are recovered by each section of
the community, the costs of hunting, sales and trades among scientific
organizations, etc.

Maybe we should take time to document our experiences with the BLM and meet
at Tucson to draft a response?

Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D.
nick.gessler at duke.edu
http://isis.duke.edu/gessler
Research Associate (ISIS)
INFORMATION SCIENCE & INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham, North
Carolina

Courses:
ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE & EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION
       Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107, VisMedStudies-172
ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY & PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS
       Networks of Trust, Secrecy & Deception / ISIS-235, CultAnth-226
METEORITES & SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY
       History of & Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics / ISIS-230,
EarthOceanSci-230

________________________________________
From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] on behalf of Yinan Wang
[veomega at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2012 1:49 PM
To: Jim Strope
Cc: meteorite central
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy

My two cents on part of this topic:

I think part of the problem we're having is that there is not enough clout
or lobby for our hobby/industry. The BLM can easily ignore various
individual emails/demands but it's harder to ignore a petition or lobby of
several hundred people together, especially if they have media attention.

If others are interested, I think we should start up a petition at charge .
org or one of the other petition websites. Gather enough
signatures/attention and soon others can't afford to ignore you.

Anyone interested in the wording or writing of the petition should email me
privately and we can see if we can get something together.

Sincerely,
Yinan

On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 11:46 AM, Jim Strope <faq4q at yahoo.com> wrote:
> You sure hit the nail on the head, Adam. Things sure have changed over
the last few years.
>
> Jim Strope
> 421 4th Street
> Glen Dale, WV. 26038
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 2, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It is interesting that the BLM has pulled the Antiquities Act out of a
hat in this version. We can thank Douglas Schmidt for this connection in
the infamous paper he wrote years ago claiming meteorites are cultural
objects. He went as far as quoting the Antiquities Act in his ramblings. Now
educators and researchers have to obtain an Antiquities Act permit for
meteorites. Really?
>>
>>
>> We can thank all the over-hype in the media and TV programs for the rest
of the restrictions! It looks like a few have ruined it for the rest of us!
>>
>> These rules affect everybody interested in the pursuit and it will not be
long before our public lands are completely closed. What a nice legacy our
generation has left behind. May we never forget the few responsible for the
downfall of a great avocation.
>>
>>
>> Happy Hunting,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "Nicholas Gessler, Ph.D." <nick.gessler at duke.edu>
>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 7:08 AM
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] BLM and Meteorite Recovery Policy
>>
>> Regarding the BLM's policy on "Collection of Meteorites on Public Land"
posted at:
>> http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/info/regulations/Instruction_Memos_and_Bu
>> lletins/national_instruction/2012/IM_2012-182.html
>> I have written three emails of complaint to Lucia Kuizon, National
Paleontologist and lkuizon at blm.gov, and Frank Jenks, Natural Resources
Specialist fjenks at blm.gov, buty as yet have not had the courtesy of a reply.
>>
>> At this time, I'm prepared to file a FOIA (Freedom of Information)
request for all documentation leading up to the legislation posted on their
website, to include minutes of all meetings, drafts, lists of committee
members and individuals consulted, emails pertaining to the above, etc.
>>
>> Before I do so, has anyone else filed such a request? Have any other
list members received any "official" communications from the BLM regarding
their policy?
>>
>> I note that the policy is set to expire in one year, which would imply
that implementation of this policy is still in flux. I am surprised how
naive, unrealistic, self-contradictory and wrongheaded this legislation is
and I think that we on the list, the Meteoritical Society and academic and
scientific institutions should come together to oppose it.
>>
>> I have a full teaching and research schedule, so please forgive me if
this all has been hashed out on the list before or if protests have already
been filed. If anyone else is moving forward on this, please get in touch
with me. Please email me directly if you have any inside information on
this. I'm pretty sure there was no consultation with those potentially
affected by this legislation. We need a website devoted to this struggle.
Perhaps I can contribute to that effort.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> nick.gessler at duke.edu
>> http://isis.duke.edu/gessler
>> Research Associate (ISIS)
>> INFORMATION SCIENCE & INFORMATION STUDIES Duke University, Durham,
>> North Carolina
>>
>> Courses:
>> ARTIFICIAL LIFE, CULTURE & EVOLUTIONARY COMPUTATION
>> Multiagent Complex Systems / ISIS-170, CompSci-107,
>> VisMedStudies-172 ESPIONAGE, CRYPTOLOGY & PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS
>> Networks of Trust, Secrecy & Deception / ISIS-235,
>> CultAnth-226 METEORITES & SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY
>> History of & Simulations in the Science of Meteoritics /
>> ISIS-230, EarthOceanSci-230
>> ______________________________________________
>>
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Received on Sun 02 Dec 2012 03:49:24 PM PST