[meteorite-list] Sedimentary Martian Meteorites

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 02:07:57 +0100
Message-ID: <008c01cbe8f6$bf784440$3e68ccc0$_at_de>

Ya but Carl,

I know for example, that like everywhere else also in Germany meteorites lie around - they are there, but nobody has a chance to find them.

And I think I can calm you, look here for instance:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2011/pdf/2371.pdf

There the main mass of NWA 4925 is depicted,
the stone had zero fusion crust (an enormous terrestrial age) and a thick whitish-grey rind around.

Or even more extreme: NWA 4485 - a thick white rind all around.
http://www.meteoris.de/img/lun-mms/NWA4485a.jpg

Such stones are picked up in desert, they're acquired by people, who think, they could be meteorites and are brought to the labs, and the scientists accept them as candidates and analyze them.

So obviously that system works.

I chose those two examples, because those are extremely atypical and extremely rare meteorites, where also the usual "tests" like e.g. a magnet doesn't work. One is a shergottite, the other a KREEP-bearing lunar.

In general, all of the major dealers and hunters have often to handle stones without any fusion crust, because they are fragments or because the crust has weathered away.
Or stones, covered with desert varnish, which befalls all types of rocks, not only meteorites.

Look at these - in the field they are looking like the opposite of a meteorite,
in the very hand until then no expert would have supposed them to be meteoritic
and even cut they didn't look like meteorites:
http://www.haberer-meteorite.de/DSCN0036.jpg

Nevertheless they were recovered, they were picked up, they were analyzed - and are now lunars.

Btw. - that's why I have the opinion, that it is of urgent interest for "science" to actively advocate private meteorite hunting, collecting and trade - or at least not to suppress it.
Because I fear such stones else wouldn't be found or identified.
On all university expeditions ever carried out in history - outside of Antarctica with its special conditions - so far only a single piece of a lunar was found, SaU 169 in Oman, which was easily identifiable, because it had black crust and was looking like a typical meteorite:
http://www.meteorites.wustl.edu/lunar/stones/lm_sau160a.jpg

And where alone in Oman, the private hunters recovered in the same years 22 different lunars in 100-200 pieces.

And the same: all "official" non-Antarctic undertakings resulted in the find on one single Martian stone,
which was a late additional find of a Martian, whereof the private hunters had recovered before more than 10 kgs.

That isn't meant disparagingly, it's only to demonstrate, what seems to be necessary, that atypical and rare meteorites can be recovered at all. The scientists in the hot desert seem not to be able to spend the necessary manhours and/or they are not so well trained/experienced for the very particular job of recovering such stones. (Finances would be a minor problem, if you compare the expenses of the private hunters with the fund used for "official" hunters).

So if it once will be granted, that those, who can do it best, can continue their work,
then I personally wouldn't worry much, that too exotic types of meteorites would remain unrecognized.
They were found and they will be found.

And else, what you wish, it is not practicable.
I got the recent years so many stones showed, where the people who found them, were so convinced, that they must be meteorites, and if they had really no properties of meteorites, that they must be a new type and so many insisted, that they would have to be measured and analyzed, that you could occupy two university departments for many years with only proving that these stone are terrestrial.

Which institute was it, which offered to take a look on all stones sent in, whether they could be meteorites?
We had the photo here once on the list, with cubic yards of parcels.
And you have to understand, those Space and Geoscience departments are no service industry to tell to people, whether their stones are something or not, but they shall do mineralogy, space science and planetology!
It would be a horrible waste of resources - of lab equipment and highly-qualified people, if their main occupation would be to test myriads of non-meteorite-looking terrestrial stones, in the vague hope that one day one of them could turn out to be a very special space rock.

Therefore I think, it's better to wait, until those, who have as main profession the recovery of possible meteorites, will bring them such a stone or until something like that will be found in Antarctica or until a fireball smashes something like that directly in front of our feet.
And if that will have happened, then it's easier, because then we all know what to look for.

Patience, patience.

(We all do the best we can :-)

Best!
Martin



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: cdtucson at cox.net [mailto:cdtucson at cox.net]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. M?rz 2011 23:54
An: Martin Altmann; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Sedimentary Martian Meteorites

Martin,
You ask; Why do I think so?
Its simple. We know they are there.
If people were paid to study all rocks found in Antarctica and all of the other way way out of place rocks. Then they would not be overlooked as they are today.
The truth is that many rocks collected even from ice fields are later rejected and deemed meteorwrongs. They are being rejected particularly if they have NO fusion crust or odd chemistries. I have seen obvious meteorites that are rejected because they don't fit neatly into the stuff we already know. If NASA would pay our Scientists to follow through on some of these prospects, I am sure some of them would be verified.
The best example that comes to mind is D'Orbigny. It was totally rejected for a long time and by a lot of different people including NASA folks. I think Darryl said, Had it been recognized, he would be the one living well in Oregon today. Well, luckily someone was paid enough to take the time to further study it and to me. It is one of the most spectacular meteorite I've ever seen.
That is the point. If we are to find sedimentary meteorites. We need to begin to study odd rocks found out of place that have no fusion crust.
It is clear from the only science we have that sedimentary rocks have either white crusts or no crust at all.

To that point. I guarantee you right now that there is not a meteorite scientist on this planet today that would bother to study a rock without crust.
Just ask them. Any of them. Ask them if they would study a rock without crust and I guarantee they would say NO.
I mean why should they?
There are enough rocks with crust that are obvious. So, why bother with rocks that are likely going to be wrongs?
Do the math. Unless and until these people are properly paid to possibly waste their own valuable time, they are simply not going to do it.
So, that is why I say. Once we begin to pay these people to study any and all out of place rocks we will never find any sedimentary meteorites. Because they will likely have no fusion crust. These rocks will continue to be pigeon holed into categories of the wrongs.
This crust issue could start a whole new argument of it's own but, our Science shows that crust falls off. Especially on this type of stone.
I am not knocking our Scientists at all. In fact I respect them. That is why I say. NASA needs to pay them .
We know there has to be sedimentary meteorites just as we know their must be life elsewhere. We have the ability to find the one but, the other may take time.
Carl

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax

Received on Tue 22 Mar 2011 09:07:57 PM PDT