[meteorite-list] Sedimentary Martian Meteorites

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:53:59 -0400 Message-ID: <20110322185359.WVUIF.159216.imail_at_fed1rmwml33> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
---- Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote: 
> Hiho,
> 
> >I think we will find sedimentary meteorites in a hurry.
> 
> Why do you think so?
> 
> 
> To me it seems even not so easy and trivial to find a "normal" Martian
> meteorite.
> 
> There are only 56 among the 10,000-20,000 different meteorites known.
> 
> And among the 40,000-100,000+++ stones and fragments picked up in
> Antarctica, only 25 stones or so were Martians.(of 15 different).
> 
> Falls...    1200+ observed falls - all the same 4 came down.
> 
> On the whole North American continent only 1 Martian was found so far. (and
> 1 in an old collection).
> 
> Hence if Martian sediments were only as numerous as "normal" Martian
> meteorites, it would be quite a difficult task.
> 
> (I'm living in an area of the World, where even the recovery of an ordinary
> chondrite is quite a sensation).
> 
> 
> So I guess, you simply have to have some patience.
> All the very recent 15 years so many unusual and whack stones were found and
> classified to be meteorites, which no mortal would have picked up suspecting
> them to be meteoritic,
> therefore we fully can trust in all the hundreds of anonymous true experts
> combing the Sahara, the not so anonymous expert hunters in Oman and in the
> campaigns on the blue icefields.
> 
> If there are sedimentary meteorites, they will find them.
> 
> Precondition is only, that you allow the people to hunt. If you have
> something e.g. like in Australia then of course it is impossible to find a
> sedimentary one, because then even something not so rare like a CV3 or an
> EUC is exponentially more seldom found, says the Bulletin, then elsewhere
> the Martians or the Lunars.
> That's the only problem, where politics plays a role. 
> (But don't worry such a mediaeval or pre-modern position like current
> Australian meteoritics presents, is rather a position of scientific
> outcasts.)
> 
> I read somewhere, that the upper crust of Earth consists of rocks.
> Methodically it would make not so much sense to measure them all, whether
> they are of meteoritic origin. And everyone who has a webpage about
> meteorites can tell you a thing or two about how many hundreds of alleged
> meteorites the people offload on each of them each year.
> 
> Juuust a little patience.
> Martin
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
> cdtucson at cox.net
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 22. M?rz 2011 18:00
> An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; 'Walter Branch'; David Norton
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Sedimentary Martian Meteorites
> 
> David, Walter, list,
> I think you may be right here.
> Maybe they have no fusion crust. 
> Perhaps my link to the artificial meteorite study did not work so here it is
> again;
> 
> http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Stone_6_Artificial_Meteorite_Shows_Martian
> _Impactors_Could_Carry_Traces_Of_Life_999.html
> 
> It clearly states as a matter of fact that sedimentary rocks either had a
> white crust or no crust at all when put to the test.
> 
> So, if this is the science speaking. Why should we expect anything but white
> crust or No crust at all?
> This suggests that the only way a Scientist is going to be willing to spend
> their time on anything like this is if they are paid to do it.
> So far Nobody is actually paid to do it. I have been told this by professors
> themselves. That they do meteorite classifications as a side job and only if
> they want to.
>  As a case in point. I showed a well known lunar expert a cut and polished
> stone. I told him that many people in the meteorite field have seen this
> stone and all believe it to be of Lunar origin. He looked closely at it with
> a loop and said;" it does look like a lunar. It has a good 50% chance of it
> being Lunar But, I have NO interest in classifying it. Call Dolores". That
> is an exact quote. I emailed Dolores and Dolores does not respond to my
> emails or phone messages.
>  I was told by her husband that she too has no incentive to classify even
> Lunar's. He went on to say that they can apply for federal money (grants)
> after a meteorite is authenticated but NOT before. So, maybe down the road
> they may be able to get paid to study the rock but, Not until later. In her
> defense she is super busy with the MESSENGER Mercury mission and from what I
> understand will be for quite some time. 
> This is a very sad story. Why doesn't NASA fund this? I mean we talk about
> NASA's great accomplishments in space yet they seem to ignore the freebies
> found here on Earth. And finally the other problem is access. Politics plays
> a huge role in classification. There are certain people who get rock star
> treatment when it comes to hot finds while others are ignored. Sure , high
> profile players should get the attention of scientists but, I'm told others
> are actually being "blackballed" by scientists? So, again I say. put
> politics aside by giving  scientists an incentive with cash and I think we
> will find sedimentary meteorites in a hurry. 
> If it's true that meteorites have their own ranges of chemistry and if it's
> true that they can be charted and graphed by scientists like Randy Korotev
> as documented evidence that they are purported to be. If it plots on the
> chart correctly then that is proof it is  Lunar and if it does not plot that
> is proof it is not.  Then, I see Blain Reed's XRF gun as a great aid to
> Scientists. Here he has an opportunity to weed out the bad prospects and
> document the chemistry of the  good ones. The ones that do plot on those
> very exclusive charts and graphs should be looked at with priority. 
> But, even with having all the right chemistry and all the right minerals. We
> still need Oxygen isotopes done to clinch the deal. 
> This is not available to the public. So, we still need to convince
> Scientists that what we have may be a meteorite.
> As a hunter for 23 years I know that there are a lot of odd and out of place
> rocks out there. 
> So hopefully some day we can overcome all of these problems. I think money
> is the answer. 
> Carl
> 
> Carl or Debbie Esparza
> Meteoritemax
> 
> 
> ---- David Norton <renov8hotels at earthlink.net> wrote: 
> > I would think the answer to your question is simpler than the science
> trying
> > to explain why we do not have this material in our possession. The stones
> in
> > questions are more likely unrecognized, particularly if there is a lack of
> > fusion crust. Reference our own understanding (recognition) of meteorites
> 50
> > years ago and 100 years ago. Our knowledge base has expanded substantially
> > and continues to improve (evolve) as more material is studied. For those
> of
> > you who have seen hundreds or thousands of meteorites and compare those
> > observations to the "meteorite identification checklists" that can be
> found
> > commonly, you know that the atypical exists everywhere.
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Walter
> > Branch
> > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 7:57 PM
> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Sedimentary Martian Meteorites
> > 
> > Hello Steve, Carl and List,
> > 
> > Thanks very much for the comments.
> > 
> > I am at a distinct disadvantage, not having a background in geology so 
> > please bear with me.
> > 
> > I understand exothermic processes but...
> > 
> > The oldest sedimentary rocks are found in various places such as
> Greenland, 
> > Hudson Bay in northern Quebec, Western Australia, etc.  These rocks are 
> > billions of years old, yet they are still recognized as sedimentary rocks.
> 
> > Why?  Should they not have disappeared long ago?  Would you say these
> rocks 
> > were never exposed to heat, water or weathering?
> > 
> > I would think that traveling through space, where obviously no terrestrial
> 
> > weathering occurs, potential Martian sedimentary rocks would not undergo 
> > weathering until they landed on Earth which would be on the order of 
> > millions of years ago. Much more recent than the oldest Earth sedimentary 
> > rocks.
> > 
> > It may very well be that the reason we don't have any Martian sedimentary 
> > rocks in our collections (scientific and otherwise) is because they have
> all
> > 
> > weathered away or at least to the point where we would not recognize them
> as
> > 
> > being Martian, or even meteoritic, in origin.
> > 
> > Yes, I have looked at Dr. Irving's site.
> > 
> > http://www.imca.cc/mars/martian-meteorites.htm
> > 
> > It's a great site and is on my favorites list but he doesn't speculate as
> to
> > 
> > why we have no Martian sedimentary rocks, which is what I am most
> interested
> > 
> > in.
> > 
> > 
> > -Walter
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ______________________________________________
> > Visit the Archives at
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > 
> > 
> > ______________________________________________
> > Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> ______________________________________________
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> 
> ______________________________________________
> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list