[meteorite-list] Home, Home on La Grange!

From: Steve Dunklee <steve.dunklee_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1309402700.79612.YahooMailClassic_at_web113901.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

I was thinking about the lagrangian points and neo's as they fly by as easier methods of getting pristine material. With the Japanese probe not finding higher concentrations of dust I am now wondering if the observed patches might be caused by a higher concentration of light as it is bent by the earth like a lens and the 10 deg rotation caused by the moon as it revolves around earth? I also think using a rare earth magnet in the center of a probe covered with balistic jel might increase the chances of collecting dust and small meteroids. it would be cheaper sending out small probes inside a ballon that expands to several feet or even up to ten meters which collapse when punctured and return to earth orbit. all the electronics could be smaller than a jump drive. and thousands of them could be made for about 20 bucks each. and launched into orbits that would bring them back to earth. and they could all be powered with a few solar cells to keep the cell
 phone charged up. since we already have hand held radars we could put one of them in too. the whole probe when launched the size of a cell phone. expands to ten meters with a half gram of hydrogen. and calls home when punctured. waiting for small neos to come by earth and capturing them or getting a sample would still be cheaper than a moon mission. I also think sending a probe perpendicular to the earths orbit about 100 million miles up would be the most cost effective way to find possible neos. what we are doing now is like trying to look at the edge of a saw blade. or sitting next to a merry go round wondering when is that bully going to kick me in the face as he goes by. a camera obove the merry go round would see that boot sticking out a lot sooner than trying to see it sitting next to it.
have a great day
Steve

--- On Wed, 6/29/11, Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Home, Home on La Grange!
> To: "Richard Kowalski" <damoclid at yahoo.com>, "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 29, 2011, 4:59 AM
> Doug,
>
> I believe Anaxagoras was referring to the Anti-Earth,
> a body thought possible (in either a geocentric or a
> heliocentric system) that was always behind the Sun
> from the viewpoint of Earth, hence "never seen by us."
> It's an idea that doesn't go away (like it should):
> http://files.ncas.org/condon/text/appndx-e.htm
>
> But it was Pythogoras, the first to call the earth "round"
> and not the center of the universe, a word he invented,
> BTW: "cosmos" or universe. And he had that Theorem
> thingee, too. Yes, the Anti-Earth was his idea... So, he
> missed one.
>
> But, when I read your post, Doug, I thought you meant
> the Kordylewski clouds --- "large concentrations of dust
> that may exist at the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points of the
> Earth-Moon system."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kordylewski_cloud
>
> ???"The existence of a photometrically
> confirmable
> concentration of dust at the libration points was
> predicted by Professor J. Witkowski in 1951.
> ???The clouds were first seen by Kordylewski
> in
> 1956. Between 6 March and 6 April, 1961 he
> succeeded in photographing two bright patches
> near the L5 libration point. During the observation
> time the patches hardly appeared to move relative
> to L5...
> ???In 1967, J. Wesley Simpson made
> observations
> of the clouds using the Kuiper Airborne Observatory.
> ???The existence of the Kordylewski clouds
> is still
> under dispute. The Japanese Hiten space probe,
> which passed through the libration points to detect
> trapped dust particles, did not find an obvious
> increase in dust levels above the density in
> surrounding space..."
>
> The Kordylewski clouds are a very faint phenomenon,
> comparable to the brightness of the Gegenschein and,
> as the Lagrangian points are unstable, they may be a
> random and transient phenomenon. They are reported
> to have an angular diameter of up to 6 degrees and to
> orbit the Lagrangian points in elipses, when seen. L5
> clouds seem to be observed more than L4 coulds.
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Lagrange_points_Earth_vs_Moon.jpg
>
> Grrrr! No dust!
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v224/n5219/abs/224571a0.html
>
> Anyone got Sky and Telescope, 22, 63 (1961)? There
> are Kordylewski's photos in there.
>
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspaceflight.esa.int%2Fstrategy%2Fpages%2FHome__Events__Why_the_moon__Posters__P12_Laufer.cfm&rct=j&q=kordylewski%20sky%20%26%20telescope&ei=XJ8KTsSgGI2qsALIosGjAQ&usg=AFQjCNFOB0d25_NmBxPsAyX99MoNzDyWpg&sig2=98jwIRBEppaJQdNioVXWdw&cad=rja
>
> More Moons of the Earth:
> http://library.thinkquest.org/25401/data/discovery/text/hyp.html?tql-iframe#moon
> ???"In October 1956, Kordylewski saw, for
> the first time, a
> fairly bright patch in one of the two positions. It was not
> small,
> subtending an angle of 2? (i.e. about 4 times larger than
> the
> Moon itself). It also was very faint, only about half as
> bright as the
> notoriously difficult Gegenschein (counterglow - a bright
> patch
> in the zodiacal light, directly opposite to the Sun). In
> March
> and April 1961, Kordylewski succeeded in photographing two
> clouds near the expected positions. They seem to vary in
> extent, but that may be due to changing illumination. J.
> Roach
> detected these cloud satellites in 1975 with the OSO
> (Orbiting
> Solar Observatory) 6 spacecraft. In 1990, they were again
> photographed, this time by the Polish astronomer Winiarski,
> who
> found that they were a few degrees in apparent diameter,
> that
> they "wandered" up to 10? away from the "trojan" point,
> and that
> they were somewhat redder than the zodiacal light."
>
> Photometry didn't find any clouds:
> http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/124326.pdf
>
> Kordylewski clouds at the Earth-Sun Lagrangian points?
> http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=6228
> and
> http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/04/10/1224231/STEREO-Spacecraft-To-Explore-Earths-L4-and-L5
>
> Lots of "things" at Lagrangian Points...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objects_at_Lagrangian_points
>
> The Clouds of Kordylewski? I think they come and go...
>
>
> Sterling K. Webb
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Kowalski"
> <damoclid at yahoo.com>
> To: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases
> andmeteoriterecovery)
>
>
> Doug, I think you missed a key word in my post, "... known
> ...".
>
> Cheers
>
>
> --
> Richard Kowalski
> Full Moon Photography
> IMCA #1081
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> To: damoclid at yahoo.com;
> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases
> and meteoriterecovery)
>
> Richard K says:
>
> "There are no known Earth Trojans."
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> Come on ol' friend, even 2500 years ago Anaxagoras
> deduced:
>
> "Under the stars are the Sun and Moon, and also certain
> bodies which revolve with them, but are invisible to us."
>
> and we've observed enough meteorites to vindicate him!
>
> The "invisible" he was talking about refers to them being
> too small to have enough light to reflect to be seen. What
> is the median threshold resolution we are talking about
> nowadays (in mass or diameter) at that distance?
>
> Perhaps the points are not a pocket full of horses, but
> Chincoteague Ponies, some used, would be a coupe.
> Regardless, towing an asteroid back to earth wasn't what I
> had in mind at all. Look, we've even sent Stardust to play
> tennis with comets, in hope of getting some micron sized
> particles, while ignoring the voluminous information
> guaranteed to be on the shelves of these libration
> libraries, not in mass, but in rubble and dust, a page at a
> time and conveniently located.
>
> Best wishes
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com>
> To: meteorite list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 28, 2011 5:59 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases
> and meteoriterecovery)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
> To: etmeteorites at hotmail.com;
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases
> and
> meteoriterecovery)
>
>
>
> You want to go the the nearer Lagrangian Points in plain
> space between the Earth
> and Moon. That is where the most fascinating stuff is to be
> found, written in
> unaltered stone the genesis of the Moon and plenty more
> debris to keep
> scientists and collectors busy and overworked for the nex
> 10,000 years!
>
>
>
>
> There are no known Earth Trojans.
>
> --
> Richard Kowalski
> Full Moon Photography
> IMCA #1081
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Received on Wed 29 Jun 2011 10:58:20 PM PDT