[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !

From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:50:01 -0700
Message-ID: <F074FD909E8E4042BCA025D6D1863D89_at_bosoheadPC>

I meant to write...."If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting
meteorites, this is not crucial to science!" -R


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Montgomery" <rickmont at earthlink.net>
To: "Thunder Stone" <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>; <countdeiro at earthlink.net>;
<cdtucson at cox.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
<starsinthedirt at aol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !


> Carl, this particular extraordinary meteorite, NWA5400, is unique BECAUSE
> of the TFL O-analysis. This has sounded the beckoning call for
> exta-ordinary analysis from the position of SCIENTIFIC value, not $$
> collector value. This is where the distinction is stark.
>
> We will/should-be sure to examine the reason for specific isotope analysis
> when science calls for it. Right? After all, a round-trip to Earth is
> rare.
>
> If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is
> crucial to science. If someone wants to take it a step further and
> involve $$, it only makes sense to be sure of one's investment
> authenticity.
>
> -Richard Montgomery
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thunder Stone" <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>
> To: <countdeiro at earthlink.net>; <cdtucson at cox.net>;
> <rickmont at earthlink.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>;
> <starsinthedirt at aol.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:48 PM
> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>
>
>
> Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O
> isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type
> rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove
> a "pairing" to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that
> NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this
> unique meteorite out there.
>
> Just my thoughts,
>
> Greg S.
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700
>> From: countdeiro at earthlink.net
>> To: cdtucson at cox.net; rickmont at earthlink.net;
>> meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; starsinthedirt at aol.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>>
>> Carl and List,
>>
>> Carl has plaintively asked:
>> "Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites
>> here?
>> >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough
>> >for some collectors now?
>> >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for
>> >the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies?
>> >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a
>> >Scientist?
>> >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments?
>>
>> And as I was addressed..I will answer..
>>
>> Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing
>> seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites.
>>
>> Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough
>> would be more artfully put) for some collectors.
>>
>> No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other
>> parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close
>> pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the
>> pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might
>> make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes
>> have been made.
>>
>> I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only
>> once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The
>> recent "angrite" argument comes to mind.
>>
>> And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the
>> intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's
>> nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific
>> study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring
>> an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and
>> provide a haven for disposable cash.
>>
>> I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun
>> I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time.
>>
>> Best to you and all,
>>
>> Count Deiro
>> IMCA 3536
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: cdtucson at cox.net
>> >Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM
>> >To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' ,
>> >countdeiro at earthlink.net, "Tom P."
>> >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>> >
>> >List,
>> >Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites
>> >here?
>> >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough
>> >for some collectors now?
>> >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for
>> >the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies?
>> >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a
>> >Scientist?
>> >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments?
>> >
>> >Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and
>> >unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock.
>> >Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from
>> >study?
>> >
>> >I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond?
>> >Only De Beers sells " real" diamonds . Right?
>> >
>> >A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top
>> >of the market may need to take another look at their investment
>> >strategies.
>> >
>> >I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up
>> >to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the
>> >Scientists.
>> >Sure you can ask questions about things but to distrust the word of a
>> >scientist on this public forum is not only insulting and degrading but
>> >could be detrimental to the hobby as a whole.
>> >Again, think about the tens of thousands of uncut stones out there in
>> >both private and public collections that are considered to be of a
>> >specific type of material. Have all or even any of these even had O
>> >isotopic studies done on them? I think maybe some at best .
>> >Calcalong Creek was totally verified and published as a Lunar meteorite
>> >prior to any O isotopic study ever being done on it at all. Just to name
>> >one.
>> >I know this because I have a copy of the abstract and there is NO
>> >mention of O isotopes.
>> >The point here is that we can and do trust our Scientists. I personally
>> >would trust them more than any dealer anytime.
>> >Also, collectors please keep in mind that there is no entity that
>> >*certifies* any of these so called meteorites as meteorites. Only that
>> >they are named.
>> >Yes, in order for the name to be approved they must have science done on
>> >them but there is no set requirement that they must have O isotopic
>> >studies.
>> >It is my understanding that all of these rocks paired with NWA 5400 all
>> >came from the same dealer and a certain dealer happened to buy just one
>> >of a box full of the same. I'm sure he wishes he had purchased them all
>> >but luckily he and De Beers are not the only sellers out there.
>> >Carl
>> >
>> >--
>> >Carl or Debbie Esparza
>> >Meteoritemax
>> >
>> >
>> >---- Richard Montgomery wrote:
>> >> Hi List. I specifically chose slices of NWA 5400 and NWA 6292 from
>> >> Greg and
>> >> Peter because of the O-anaysis. Highly regarded science has been
>> >> paired
>> >> with the highly regarded reputations of all these gentlemen. The
>> >> stones
>> >> have earned their true IDs by the thorough rigors required, no
>> >> short-cut
>> >> exceptions. (This is not to dimisnish any future 'potential'
>> >> confirmations
>> >> though, since my emphasis is on 'confirmation' by the same
>> >> studies.) -Richard Montgomery
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From:
>> >> To: "Greg Hupe" ; "Peter Marmet" ;
>> >> "Greg Catterton" ;
>> >> Cc:
>> >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:34 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > List and those whose feet fit the following shoes,
>> >> >
>> >> > Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected "pairing"
>> >> > to
>> >> > NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I
>> >> > empathically agree.
>> >> >
>> >> > When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that
>> >> > commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we
>> >> > know
>> >> > and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that
>> >> > includes gas
>> >> > analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter
>> >> > Marmet,
>> >> > of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full
>> >> > provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them.
>> >> >
>> >> > For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA
>> >> > 5400
>> >> > when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by
>> >> > opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be
>> >> > followed
>> >> > amongst gentlemen of commerce.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best to all,
>> >> >
>> >> > Count Deiro
>> >> > IMCA 3536
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>From: Greg Hupe
>> >> >>Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM
>> >> >>To: Peter Marmet , Greg Catterton
>> >> >>, Starsinthedirt at aol.com
>> >> >>Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Hello Peter, GregC and Tom,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400
>> >> >>absolutely
>> >> >>has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most
>> >> >>people
>> >> >>do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400,
>> >> >>but
>> >> >>oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples
>> >> >>from
>> >> >>additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that
>> >> >>'looked'
>> >> >>similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be
>> >> >>'just'
>> >> >>brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced
>> >> >>analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter
>> >> >>pointed
>> >> >>out, "...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA
>> >> >>5363."
>> >> >>In
>> >> >>other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so "NWA
>> >> >>5363"
>> >> >>has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last
>> >> >>discussion on
>> >> >>this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not
>> >> >>yet
>> >> >>received a sample of "NWA 5363". But then again, which of the 30
>> >> >>stones,
>> >> >>if
>> >> >>any, were sampled and sent to him?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones
>> >> >>totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and
>> >> >>every
>> >> >>stone that is considered as "NWA 5363" need to be individually
>> >> >>studied and
>> >> >>have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly
>> >> >>together
>> >> >>as
>> >> >>a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not
>> >> >>make
>> >> >>for
>> >> >>a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled.
>> >> >>As Dr.
>> >> >>Irving stated, "NWA 5363" will always be a suspect meteorite because
>> >> >>of
>> >> >>the
>> >> >>unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30
>> >> >>different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and
>> >> >>then sold
>> >> >>around the world as being paired to the one sampled "NWA 5363"
>> >> >>stone.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are
>> >> >>just
>> >> >>the
>> >> >>facts. If I had a stone from "NWA 5363", you bet I would send a
>> >> >>piece of
>> >> >>that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably
>> >> >>by the
>> >> >>same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are
>> >> >>offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the
>> >> >>"NWA
>> >> >>5363" stone, much less NWA 5400.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this
>> >> >>topic.
>> >> >>If
>> >> >>you have concerns about your "NWA 5363" stone, contact a scientist
>> >> >>who is
>> >> >>willing to study your rock.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Best regards,
>> >> >>Greg
>> >> >>
>> >> >>====================
>> >> >>Greg Hupe
>> >> >>The Hupe Collection
>> >> >>NaturesVault (eBay)
>> >> >>gmhupe at htn.net
>> >> >>www.LunarRock.com
>> >> >>IMCA 3163
>> >> >>====================
>> >> >>Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>> >> >>http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>> >> >>
>> >> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>From: "Peter Marmet"
>> >> >>To: "Greg Catterton"
>> >> >>Cc:
>> >> >>Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM
>> >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Hello Tom, Greg and list,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363.
>> >> >>I
>> >> >>also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to
>> >> >>NWA 5400, despite
>> >> >>the fact that they look very similar.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292
>> >> >>(paired to NWA 5400!)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >>...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html (please scroll
>> >> >>down)
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Best,
>> >> >>Peter
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>2010/9/25 Greg Catterton :
>> >> >>> I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had
>> >> >>> been
>> >> >>> confirmed already to be paired (5363)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its
>> >> >>> awesome,
>> >> >>> and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also!
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hope everyone is doing good today.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Greg Catterton
>> >> >>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>> >> >>> IMCA member 4682
>> >> >>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>> >> >>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Starsinthedirt at aol.com
>> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> From: Starsinthedirt at aol.com
>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA
>> >> >>>> 5400 !
>> >> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> >>>> Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM
>> >> >>>> Hi list, I am working on a
>> >> >>>> batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted
>> >> >>>> light Xpol images and the results are turning out
>> >> >>>> very good.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is.
>> >> >>>> Any news of any other
>> >> >>>> pairings than 6292?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Does some one have the whole story on this?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Thanks, Tom
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain
>> >> >>>> Daylight Time,
>> >> >>>> p.marmet at sunrise.ch
>> >> >>>> writes:
>> >> >>>> Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members,
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 !
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving:
>> >> >>>> Quote:
>> >> >>>> "I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope
>> >> >>>> composition of NWA 6292,
>> >> >>>> which plots on the terrestrial
>> >> >>>> fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is
>> >> >>>> paired with NWA
>> >> >>>> 5400."
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> I just updated my "Achondrites fro sale" page, incl.
>> >> >>>> NWA 6292 (BRA):
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still
>> >> >>>> provisional.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Thank you,
>> >> >>>> Peter
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747
>> >> >>>> Bern, Switzerland
>> >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/
>> >> >>>> ______________________________________________
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>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
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Received on Mon 27 Sep 2010 10:50:01 PM PDT