[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
From: Richard Montgomery <rickmont_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 19:30:35 -0700 Message-ID: <52FE26F79A3E497BB70A1F9E3181B732_at_bosoheadPC> Carl, this particular extraordinary meteorite, NWA5400, is unique BECAUSE of the TFL O-analysis. This has sounded the beckoning call for exta-ordinary analysis from the position of SCIENTIFIC value, not $$ collector value. This is where the distinction is stark. We will/should-be sure to examine the reason for specific isotope analysis when science calls for it. Right? After all, a round-trip to Earth is rare. If monetary terms is the reason for one's collecting meteorites, this is crucial to science. If someone wants to take it a step further and involve $$, it only makes sense to be sure of one's investment authenticity. -Richard Montgomery ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thunder Stone" <stanleygregr at hotmail.com> To: <countdeiro at earthlink.net>; <cdtucson at cox.net>; <rickmont at earthlink.net>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; <starsinthedirt at aol.com> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! Wow - this is making my head spin. It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL. I would think this is necessary to prove a "pairing" to NWA 5400. Until then, it is not 100% certain. The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 > From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > To: cdtucson at cox.net; rickmont at earthlink.net; > meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; starsinthedirt at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > > Carl and List, > > Carl has plaintively asked: > "Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? > >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough > >for some collectors now? > >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for > >the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? > >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a > >Scientist? > >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? > > And as I was addressed..I will answer.. > > Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing > seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. > > Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would > be more artfully put) for some collectors. > > No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other > parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close > pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the > pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make > it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have > been made. > > I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only > once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The > recent "angrite" argument comes to mind. > > And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention > of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples > hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, > appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object > of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a > haven for disposable cash. > > I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun > I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. > > Best to you and all, > > Count Deiro > IMCA 3536 > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: cdtucson at cox.net > >Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM > >To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , > >countdeiro at earthlink.net, "Tom P." > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > > > >List, > >Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? > >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough > >for some collectors now? > >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for > >the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? > >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a > >Scientist? > >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? > > > >Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and > >unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. > >Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from > >study? > > > >I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond? Only > >De Beers sells " real" diamonds . Right? > > > >A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top > >of the market may need to take another look at their investment > >strategies. > > > >I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up > >to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the > >Scientists. > >Sure you can ask questions about things but to distrust the word of a > >scientist on this public forum is not only insulting and degrading but > >could be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. > >Again, think about the tens of thousands of uncut stones out there in > >both private and public collections that are considered to be of a > >specific type of material. Have all or even any of these even had O > >isotopic studies done on them? I think maybe some at best . > >Calcalong Creek was totally verified and published as a Lunar meteorite > >prior to any O isotopic study ever being done on it at all. Just to name > >one. > >I know this because I have a copy of the abstract and there is NO mention > >of O isotopes. > >The point here is that we can and do trust our Scientists. I personally > >would trust them more than any dealer anytime. > >Also, collectors please keep in mind that there is no entity that > >*certifies* any of these so called meteorites as meteorites. Only that > >they are named. > >Yes, in order for the name to be approved they must have science done on > >them but there is no set requirement that they must have O isotopic > >studies. > >It is my understanding that all of these rocks paired with NWA 5400 all > >came from the same dealer and a certain dealer happened to buy just one > >of a box full of the same. I'm sure he wishes he had purchased them all > >but luckily he and De Beers are not the only sellers out there. > >Carl > > > >-- > >Carl or Debbie Esparza > >Meteoritemax > > > > > >---- Richard Montgomery wrote: > >> Hi List. I specifically chose slices of NWA 5400 and NWA 6292 from Greg > >> and > >> Peter because of the O-anaysis. Highly regarded science has been paired > >> with the highly regarded reputations of all these gentlemen. The stones > >> have earned their true IDs by the thorough rigors required, no > >> short-cut > >> exceptions. (This is not to dimisnish any future 'potential' > >> confirmations > >> though, since my emphasis is on 'confirmation' by the same > >> studies.) -Richard Montgomery > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: > >> To: "Greg Hupe" ; "Peter Marmet" ; > >> "Greg Catterton" ; > >> Cc: > >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:34 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> > >> > >> > List and those whose feet fit the following shoes, > >> > > >> > Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected "pairing" > >> > to > >> > NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I > >> > empathically agree. > >> > > >> > When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that > >> > commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we > >> > know > >> > and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that > >> > includes gas > >> > analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter > >> > Marmet, > >> > of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full > >> > provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them. > >> > > >> > For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA > >> > 5400 > >> > when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by > >> > opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be > >> > followed > >> > amongst gentlemen of commerce. > >> > > >> > Best to all, > >> > > >> > Count Deiro > >> > IMCA 3536 > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >>From: Greg Hupe > >> >>Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM > >> >>To: Peter Marmet , Greg Catterton > >> >>, Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >> > >> >>Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, > >> >> > >> >>Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 > >> >>absolutely > >> >>has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most > >> >>people > >> >>do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, > >> >>but > >> >>oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples > >> >>from > >> >>additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that > >> >>'looked' > >> >>similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be > >> >>'just' > >> >>brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced > >> >>analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter > >> >>pointed > >> >>out, "...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA > >> >>5363." > >> >>In > >> >>other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so "NWA > >> >>5363" > >> >>has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last > >> >>discussion on > >> >>this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not > >> >>yet > >> >>received a sample of "NWA 5363". But then again, which of the 30 > >> >>stones, > >> >>if > >> >>any, were sampled and sent to him? > >> >> > >> >>Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones > >> >>totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and > >> >>every > >> >>stone that is considered as "NWA 5363" need to be individually > >> >>studied and > >> >>have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly > >> >>together > >> >>as > >> >>a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not > >> >>make > >> >>for > >> >>a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. > >> >>As Dr. > >> >>Irving stated, "NWA 5363" will always be a suspect meteorite because > >> >>of > >> >>the > >> >>unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 > >> >>different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then > >> >>sold > >> >>around the world as being paired to the one sampled "NWA 5363" stone. > >> >> > >> >>I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are > >> >>just > >> >>the > >> >>facts. If I had a stone from "NWA 5363", you bet I would send a piece > >> >>of > >> >>that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably > >> >>by the > >> >>same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are > >> >>offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the > >> >>"NWA > >> >>5363" stone, much less NWA 5400. > >> >> > >> >>I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this > >> >>topic. > >> >>If > >> >>you have concerns about your "NWA 5363" stone, contact a scientist > >> >>who is > >> >>willing to study your rock. > >> >> > >> >>Best regards, > >> >>Greg > >> >> > >> >>==================== > >> >>Greg Hupe > >> >>The Hupe Collection > >> >>NaturesVault (eBay) > >> >>gmhupe at htn.net > >> >>www.LunarRock.com > >> >>IMCA 3163 > >> >>==================== > >> >>Click here for my current eBay auctions: > >> >>http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > >> >> > >> >>----- Original Message ----- > >> >>From: "Peter Marmet" > >> >>To: "Greg Catterton" > >> >>Cc: > >> >>Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM > >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Hello Tom, Greg and list, > >> >> > >> >>I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I > >> >>also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to > >> >>NWA 5400, despite > >> >>the fact that they look very similar. > >> >> > >> >>Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 > >> >>(paired to NWA 5400!) > >> >> > >> >>http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html > >> >> > >> >>...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363: > >> >> > >> >>http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html (please scroll > >> >>down) > >> >> > >> >>Best, > >> >>Peter > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>2010/9/25 Greg Catterton : > >> >>> I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had > >> >>> been > >> >>> confirmed already to be paired (5363) > >> >>> > >> >>> I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its > >> >>> awesome, > >> >>> and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. > >> >>> > >> >>> Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! > >> >>> > >> >>> Hope everyone is doing good today. > >> >>> > >> >>> Greg Catterton > >> >>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com > >> >>> IMCA member 4682 > >> >>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites > >> >>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> From: Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 > >> >>>> ! > >> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM > >> >>>> Hi list, I am working on a > >> >>>> batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted > >> >>>> light Xpol images and the results are turning out > >> >>>> very good. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. > >> >>>> Any news of any other > >> >>>> pairings than 6292? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Does some one have the whole story on this? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thanks, Tom > >> >>>> > >> >>>> In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain > >> >>>> Daylight Time, > >> >>>> p.marmet at sunrise.ch > >> >>>> writes: > >> >>>> Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: > >> >>>> Quote: > >> >>>> "I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope > >> >>>> composition of NWA 6292, > >> >>>> which plots on the terrestrial > >> >>>> fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is > >> >>>> paired with NWA > >> >>>> 5400." > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I just updated my "Achondrites fro sale" page, incl. > >> >>>> NWA 6292 (BRA): > >> >>>> > >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still > >> >>>> provisional. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thank you, > >> >>>> Peter > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 > >> >>>> Bern, Switzerland > >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ > >> >>>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>> > >> >>______________________________________________ > >> >>Visit the Archives at > >> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> >>Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: > >> >>09/25/10 > >> >>02:34:00 > >> >> > >> >>______________________________________________ > >> >>Visit the Archives at > >> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________ > >> > Visit the Archives at > >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> > Meteorite-list mailing list > >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> Visit the Archives at > >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list = Received on Mon 27 Sep 2010 10:30:35 PM PDT |
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