[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 !
From: Thunder Stone <stanleygregr_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:48:32 -0700 Message-ID: <SNT117-W167C470E93437B6EC72128D2650_at_phx.gbl> Wow - this is making my head spin.? It is my understanding that the O isotope data is necessary to show the relationship to the early earth-type rocks; it has to fall on the TFL.? I would think this is necessary to prove a "pairing" to NWA 5400.? Until then, it is not 100% certain.? The fact that NWA 6292 IS paired to 5400 suggests that there could be more of this unique meteorite out there. Just my thoughts, Greg S. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:31:46 -0700 > From: countdeiro at earthlink.net > To: cdtucson at cox.net; rickmont at earthlink.net; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; starsinthedirt at aol.com > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > > Carl and List, > > Carl has plaintively asked: > "Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? > >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? > >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? > >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? > >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? > > And as I was addressed..I will answer.. > > Carl, what you are seeing is not the demise, but the developing seriousness and maturity of the COLLECTOR market in high end meteorites. > > Yes, some scientist's work is not good enough (maybe thorough enough would be more artfully put) for some collectors. > > No, gas analysis are no more needed, I suppose, than any other parameter..it's just that isotopes are so definitive when calling a close pairing. I, for one, will spend more for a meteorite that has all the pedigree than one that lacks a fingerprint that, if known, just might make it something other than what it is purported to be. Huge mistakes have been made. > > I have seen criticism of a scientist's report for cause...but I have only once seen a dealer's word attempt to negate a finding of a scientist. The recent "angrite" argument comes to mind. > > And...heaven forbid... you ARE seeing meteorites bought with the intention of not only collecting them for whatever makes the buyer's nipples hard...historic and scientific importance, additional scientific study, appearance, rarity, but his additional satisfaction in acquiring an object of virtue that provides an opportunity to pay for itself and provide a haven for disposable cash. > > I look upon the collection, study and hunt for meteorites as the most fun I have had for my money with my clothes on in a long time. > > Best to you and all, > > Count Deiro > IMCA 3536 > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: cdtucson at cox.net > >Sent: Sep 27, 2010 8:58 AM > >To: Richard Montgomery , 'Meteorite-list List' , countdeiro at earthlink.net, "Tom P." > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > > > >List, > >Are we witnessing the demise of the collector market for meteorites here? > >Am I really reading that a certain Scientist's word is not good enough for some collectors now? > >Am I really reading that O isotopes are now needed to prove pairings for the collector market as well as for the Scientific studies? > >Am I really reading that a certain dealers word trumps the word of a Scientist? > >Am I really reading that these things are bought as investments? > > > >Well, I guess anyone or institution with a whole pristine uncut and unstudied meteorite in his collection really just has a rock. > >Because it could not possibly be legitimate or it would have damage from study? > > > >I guess if it's not from De beers it couldn't possibly be a diamond? Only De Beers sells " real" diamonds . Right? > > > >A good investor should buy low and sell high. Anyone who buys at the top of the market may need to take another look at their investment strategies. > > > >I don't mean to be harsh. It's just I think as a collector it is not up to me to prove anything about pairing. That should be left to the Scientists. > >Sure you can ask questions about things but to distrust the word of a scientist on this public forum is not only insulting and degrading but could be detrimental to the hobby as a whole. > >Again, think about the tens of thousands of uncut stones out there in both private and public collections that are considered to be of a specific type of material. Have all or even any of these even had O isotopic studies done on them? I think maybe some at best . > >Calcalong Creek was totally verified and published as a Lunar meteorite prior to any O isotopic study ever being done on it at all. Just to name one. > >I know this because I have a copy of the abstract and there is NO mention of O isotopes. > >The point here is that we can and do trust our Scientists. I personally would trust them more than any dealer anytime. > >Also, collectors please keep in mind that there is no entity that *certifies* any of these so called meteorites as meteorites. Only that they are named. > >Yes, in order for the name to be approved they must have science done on them but there is no set requirement that they must have O isotopic studies. > >It is my understanding that all of these rocks paired with NWA 5400 all came from the same dealer and a certain dealer happened to buy just one of a box full of the same. I'm sure he wishes he had purchased them all but luckily he and De Beers are not the only sellers out there. > >Carl > > > >-- > >Carl or Debbie Esparza > >Meteoritemax > > > > > >---- Richard Montgomery wrote: > >> Hi List. I specifically chose slices of NWA 5400 and NWA 6292 from Greg and > >> Peter because of the O-anaysis. Highly regarded science has been paired > >> with the highly regarded reputations of all these gentlemen. The stones > >> have earned their true IDs by the thorough rigors required, no short-cut > >> exceptions. (This is not to dimisnish any future 'potential' confirmations > >> though, since my emphasis is on 'confirmation' by the same > >> studies.) -Richard Montgomery > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: > >> To: "Greg Hupe" ; "Peter Marmet" ; > >> "Greg Catterton" ; > >> Cc: > >> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:34 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> > >> > >> > List and those whose feet fit the following shoes, > >> > > >> > Peter is quoted by Greg as saying each and every suspected "pairing" to > >> > NWA 5400 absolutely has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed. I > >> > empathically agree. > >> > > >> > When I, and other collectors, purchase a specimen of a rarity that > >> > commands a high price per gram, we select carefully a dealer that we know > >> > and trust to have accomplished a complete classification that includes gas > >> > analysis. Greg Hupe' has an impeccable reputation as, does Peter Marmet, > >> > of only offering a new and rare addition to the inventory with full > >> > provenance and analysis. Therefore, I buy from them. > >> > > >> > For my own reasons, I paid a premium price to have my pick of NWA 5400 > >> > when first offered by Hupe' and I don't like having my ox gored by > >> > opportunists and profiteers. There are standards that should be followed > >> > amongst gentlemen of commerce. > >> > > >> > Best to all, > >> > > >> > Count Deiro > >> > IMCA 3536 > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >>From: Greg Hupe > >> >>Sent: Sep 25, 2010 2:06 PM > >> >>To: Peter Marmet , Greg Catterton > >> >>, Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >> > >> >>Hello Peter, GregC and Tom, > >> >> > >> >>Peter has it right, each and EVERY suspect 'pairing' to NWA 5400 > >> >>absolutely > >> >>has to have oxygen isotope analysis performed, on every stone. Most people > >> >>do not know about the additional stones that 'looked' like NWA 5400, but > >> >>oxygen work proved they were not paired. I even submitted samples from > >> >>additional stones I sampled while in Morocco two years ago that 'looked' > >> >>similar to NWA 5400, but oxygen analysis later proved them to be 'just' > >> >>brachinites. NWA 5400 is one meteorite that requires these advanced > >> >>analysis, no shortcuts or visual 'pairing' will cut it. As Peter pointed > >> >>out, "...further studies are currently [being] made concerning NWA 5363." > >> >>In > >> >>other words, oxygen isotope analysis has not been completed so "NWA 5363" > >> >>has not been confirmed as a pairing [to NWA 5400]. The last discussion on > >> >>this List during the summer months stated that. Dr. Irving had not yet > >> >>received a sample of "NWA 5363". But then again, which of the 30 stones, > >> >>if > >> >>any, were sampled and sent to him? > >> >> > >> >>Since we know that NWA 5363 consists of 30 (thirty) different stones > >> >>totaling ~2kg, I and Dr. Irving, among others, believe that each and every > >> >>stone that is considered as "NWA 5363" need to be individually studied and > >> >>have oxygen analysis performed, unless all 30 pieces fit neatly together > >> >>as > >> >>a puzzle, which they do not. As we know, visual comparisons do not make > >> >>for > >> >>a pairing even upon the 30 pieces where only one stone was sampled. As Dr. > >> >>Irving stated, "NWA 5363" will always be a suspect meteorite because of > >> >>the > >> >>unfinished work (no oxygen performed) and the fact that there are 30 > >> >>different stones that were visually paired, tossed in a box, and then sold > >> >>around the world as being paired to the one sampled "NWA 5363" stone. > >> >> > >> >>I am not trying to further any negative discussions here, these are just > >> >>the > >> >>facts. If I had a stone from "NWA 5363", you bet I would send a piece of > >> >>that particular rock and have oxygen analysis performed, preferably by the > >> >>same lab where NWA 5400 was studied. Short of that, you have, or are > >> >>offering, unconfirmed stones which may or may not be paired to the "NWA > >> >>5363" stone, much less NWA 5400. > >> >> > >> >>I will not engage into any further discussions here regarding this topic. > >> >>If > >> >>you have concerns about your "NWA 5363" stone, contact a scientist who is > >> >>willing to study your rock. > >> >> > >> >>Best regards, > >> >>Greg > >> >> > >> >>==================== > >> >>Greg Hupe > >> >>The Hupe Collection > >> >>NaturesVault (eBay) > >> >>gmhupe at htn.net > >> >>www.LunarRock.com > >> >>IMCA 3163 > >> >>==================== > >> >>Click here for my current eBay auctions: > >> >>http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault > >> >> > >> >>----- Original Message ----- > >> >>From: "Peter Marmet" > >> >>To: "Greg Catterton" > >> >>Cc: > >> >>Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 12:13 PM > >> >>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>Hello Tom, Greg and list, > >> >> > >> >>I know that further studies are currently made concerning NWA 5363. I > >> >>also know that several recent finds are - strangely - NOT paired to > >> >>NWA 5400, despite > >> >>the fact that they look very similar. > >> >> > >> >>Here you can see picts of NWA 5363 (please scroll down) and NWA 6292 > >> >>(paired to NWA 5400!) > >> >> > >> >>http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html > >> >> > >> >>...and here are two picts of a thin section of NWA 5363: > >> >> > >> >>http://www.thinsections.ch/ts/LOD_-_ACAP_-_BRA.html (please scroll > >> >>down) > >> >> > >> >>Best, > >> >>Peter > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>2010/9/25 Greg Catterton : > >> >>> I have not seen anything recent, but last I read on here it had been > >> >>> confirmed already to be paired (5363) > >> >>> > >> >>> I have a couple nice slices of 5400 and I have to say that its awesome, > >> >>> and I will be sharing thin section images of it soon. > >> >>> > >> >>> Looking forward to seeing the 5363 images also! > >> >>> > >> >>> Hope everyone is doing good today. > >> >>> > >> >>> Greg Catterton > >> >>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com > >> >>> IMCA member 4682 > >> >>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites > >> >>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> --- On Fri, 9/24/10, Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>> From: Starsinthedirt at aol.com > >> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 (BRA) IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:12 PM > >> >>>> Hi list, I am working on a > >> >>>> batch of NWA 5363 (provisional) transmitted > >> >>>> light Xpol images and the results are turning out > >> >>>> very good. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I was wondering what the current scoop on 5363 is. > >> >>>> Any news of any other > >> >>>> pairings than 6292? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Does some one have the whole story on this? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thanks, Tom > >> >>>> > >> >>>> In a message dated 9/17/2010 11:31:09 A.M. Mountain > >> >>>> Daylight Time, > >> >>>> p.marmet at sunrise.ch > >> >>>> writes: > >> >>>> Dear buyers of NWA 6292, dear list members, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> NWA 6292 IS paired to NWA 5400 ! > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Just got this info from Dr. A.J. Irving: > >> >>>> Quote: > >> >>>> "I received an analysis of the oxygen isotope > >> >>>> composition of NWA 6292, > >> >>>> which plots on the terrestrial > >> >>>> fractionation line, thus confirming that this specimen is > >> >>>> paired with NWA > >> >>>> 5400." > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I just updated my "Achondrites fro sale" page, incl. > >> >>>> NWA 6292 (BRA): > >> >>>> > >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/id41.html > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Please note: Status of NWA 6292 is still > >> >>>> provisional. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thank you, > >> >>>> Peter > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Peter Marmet - IMCA #2747 > >> >>>> Bern, Switzerland > >> >>>> http://www.marmet-meteorites.com/ > >> >>>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> ______________________________________________ > >> >>> Visit the Archives at > >> >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >>> > >> >>______________________________________________ > >> >>Visit the Archives at > >> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >> >>Version: 9.0.856 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3158 - Release Date: 09/25/10 > >> >>02:34:00 > >> >> > >> >>______________________________________________ > >> >>Visit the Archives at > >> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> >>Meteorite-list mailing list > >> >>Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> >>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________ > >> > Visit the Archives at > >> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> > Meteorite-list mailing list > >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >> > >> ______________________________________________ > >> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >> Meteorite-list mailing list > >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Mon 27 Sep 2010 06:48:32 PM PDT |
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