[meteorite-list] pairing and collecting

From: cdtucson at cox.net <cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 17:24:03 -0400
Message-ID: <20100928172403.R4NUQ.7979.imail_at_fed1rmwml33>

David,
You make some very interesting and thought provoking points here.
I'm sure I will be pondering this for some time but what immediately hit home was your point about NWA 5400 and how it may be an Earthite.
As I have followed meteoritic's for the past 20 years in a very novice capacity. The one thing I've noticed is it's study has had an evolution of it's own.
By that I mean it started out rather simple by type. Then the types grew. By now there are a bunch of different types. Almahata Sitta itself has taught us a bunch and really changed my thinking especially as it relates to pairing in that pairing is very odd. Nothing matches and yet they must be paired because they fell together.
But NWA 5400 seems to be a brachinite with Earths O isotopes. It seems like lately these O isotopes have taken over in terms of Categorizing these little aliens. The part that makes this confusing is it seems that many types of meteorites are turning out to have the Earths O isotopes. The Moon, NWA 5400 and Aubrites just to name a few. So how then will this ever sort out?
What makes NWA 5400 more of an Earthite than an aubrite?
Additionally, I understand that this may be due to a zoning of some kind whereby anything that formed within a certain zone is going to have the same O isotopes as Earth.
This I ask because Aubrites seem to be more like Earth than the Brachinite -like class of NWA 5400.
The metal alone found within NWA 5400 seems to rule Earth out as it's possible origin? And unless the Earth was hit by a body that also had Earth's same O isotopes , wouldn't the O isotopes within NWA 5400 be different that Earths? I mean it should have a mixture of Earth and the body that hit it as an end result.? This too makes it very hard to understand why these assertions are made.
As was pointed out earlier so far there are only two abstracts about NWA 5400 . If you don't mind my asking, What are your thoughts on this?
And to throw one more question in there.
I have continually made the point that NWA 5400 has pairings based on the fact that Mbarak had a box full of the same rocks. It seems to me it would be very difficult to believe that two brachinite like meteorites would have been found and were being sold but were from two different falls.
Common sense tells me that these have got to be the same. Why would this fall be any different than any other? Like rocks fall together in a fall.
Thank you.
Carl

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
---- "David R. Vann" <drvann at sas.upenn.edu> wrote: 
> 
> I'd like to make a couple of observations about both pairing and collecting.
> 
> Several comments have been made regarding preserving the value of a meterorite,
> with reference to pairings decreasing value, etc. I don't know why you collect,
> heck, I don't even know why I collect things. It is apparently a part of human
> nature (for at least some) . Sure, we rationalize it by saying "it is a
> beautiful thing", "it has an interesting story", etc., but in the final
> analysis, these things are not necessities. Somewhere along the line, I think it
> was with baseball cards, the rarity of some items, combined with an increasing
> market from an expnading population, drove the price for these items out of
> sight. And thus, the concept of "investibles" had its genesis. This is a
> marketing ploy to get you to buy things. However, if you think that collectible
> items are an investment with a monetary return, you need to think very, very
> carefully about this idea. The vast majority of collectible items will not make
> you rich. An example: a friend bought a Saint Gaudens gold coin a while back.
> Whereas his stocks declined, he ultimately sold the coin for twice what he paid
> - so he thought he made out. The actual rate of return was just about 3 1/2
> percent. Guess how much inflation went up during that time? I have watched many
> types of collectible investments over the years. Most actually lose money after
> you account for inflation. Many of them return the same buying power you had
> when they were bought. A few, very few, bring a great return on investment.
> Where do meteorites fall? I doubt that you will make much money on them, Bob
> Haag nonwithstanding. There is always a point in a new market where there is
> money to be made, but after that, not so much. As a dealer, can you make a
> living? Quite possibly, yes - that can be answered by others. Will there be a
> return as an investment - I seriously doubt it. No collector should collect
> because he or she expects a return on investment - you should collect because
> you like the item, like looking at it, like its story/history, or as Martin
> said, because you can be involved in some way with the science. In other words,
> for the pleasure brought to you by the possession of the object. If you make
> money on it, well then, that's a great bonus. But it should never be the
> purpose, as you will be disappointed. I'm sure many on this list can add their
> own experiences in this regard. Just remember, next time the speculating bankers
> take down the world economy (again...how many times is it now?), meteorites will
> have no value - but your can of Spam will.
> 
> So, if my meteorite now has a new friend, a pair, am I to despair? Well, not
> from the scientific point of view, because that is supporting evidence. How
> about from the investment point of view? Does the value decrease because we now
> have two stones? Does it? (see above) How about from the point of view of the
> collector? Now you can buy two, rather than just one. What are we collecting,
> after all? We are collecting names. Yes, names, like Orgueil, Almahatta Sitta,
> Weston. If the current understanding is correct, the lithological classification
> of a meteorite has something to do with the body(ies) it may have originated on,
> and the processes on that planetoid. In other words there is a very good
> likelihood that ALL H5 stones are Paired!!! OMG!!! What does that do to the
> value of my Bassikounou? Nothing, actually. Almahatta Sitta is just another
> ureilite, after all. But one with the best story of all (from the scientific
> point of view). Many, many stones will be paired in the end, because they came
> from the same source. Occasionally, they will be "lauch-paired", i.e. knocked
> off the source at the same time. After all, if the current ideas are correct,
> the entire class of HEDO meteorties were probably launch-paired in a colossal
> impact that knocked off a quarter of Vesta. Does having several specimens of
> different names (whether Frankfort or Kapoeta or NWA 1929) make any one of them
> less valuable? I don't think so. Collecting Frankfort or Kapoeta, you are
> collecting a story (they are falls). Collecting NWA1929, you are collecting a
> name, but only the story that it is a Howardite, and likely some part of a
> shattered asteroid. The first two cost more because of their story, not so much
> because of their classification. For NWA5400 and NWA6162, we are collecting
> stories again. Whether Greg H. charges more than Peter M., or vice versa, has to
> do with what they want to get - it is theirs, after all - they can charge
> anything they want. Will I pay it? Well, that depends on whether can afford it
> and want a piece of that story (it might be an 'Earthite", in case you haven't
> been paying attention).
> 
> So, in summary: don't collect because you think you will get rich colecting -
> you won't. Don't imagine that pairs affect really affect actual value; they
> don't because, in the end everything will have pairs. My fifty dinars worth (to
> paraphrase Mike G., actual mileage can and does vary).
> 
> OK, that's enough for now, back to analyzing rocks....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David R. Vann, Ph.D.
> Department of Earth and Environmental Science
> THE UNIVERSITY of PENNSYLVANIA
> 240 S. 33rd St.
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6316
> drvann at sas.upenn.edu
> office: 215-898-4906
> FAX: 215-898-0964
> 
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Received on Tue 28 Sep 2010 05:24:03 PM PDT