[meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 23:17:11 +0200
Message-ID: <008601cb5c2d$da5d4360$8f17ca20$_at_de>

Hi Eric,

>Yet if they lived back in the days of Nininger, they might have condemned
him

They did! Some of them.

Imagine, how USA meteoritically would look today, if then such laws would
have been in force!

Uuuh, TCU would be empty. Monnig was a private collector.
No Chicago. Ward was dealer. New York empty. No UCLA, no New Mexico - and
most probably no ANSMET,
simply because there wouldn't be the knowledge, the university departments,
the tradition and infrastructure of that science branch!

Huh and we in Europe! Not only cause we bought the collections of the
treasure hunters and dealers Nininger and Huss.
Vienna, Mecca of meteorites - they would own with luck a couple of dozen
pieces from the k&k-empire.
London empty. Paris orphaned.
Chladni would have been a criminal, Schreibers a fence, Daubree a spiv,
Cohen and Tschermak in jail... whether we would know, what meteorites are
at all?
Maybe yes - Vatican collection! - cause the Pope in Rome could have claimed
legal ownership on all these rocks,
Cause they come from heaven.


>is a bogus BS misleading attempt to deflect and
>misinform the public of what professional meteorite hunters actually do

Hmmm, but more problematic could be, I think, that some of these do really
believe in the own "BS" they tell.
And among these are some, again worse, who are not willing to learn or to be
better informed.


But on the other hand, I think with that laws mess, as unsatisfying it is,
if one has to try to cope with that and to work in the field or in the lab,
how you say in English for - nothing will be eaten so hot like it was
cooked? -
it seems that not so many care about at all.

How many meteorites so far ended in court?

Let's take USA. Forest City, Old Woman, Willamette, Lorton, (Sylacauga?),
any else?
And in many cases it were rather quarrels among private parties, who should
be the owner.
Hence the usual greed-$$$-thing.
And once hunters were caught by a scared gun women, cause they dared to
trespass her property...
Ah, I have my meteorite literature not at hand - weren't there also some
kids, who found on a playground or a public sports field a meteorite? And
where first the township wanted to keep it, but then the Solomonian decision
was felt, that the stone shall be turned into cash and the money should be
used to pay the college for the kids?

Well, we talk daily about meteorites here on the list, but we're quite the
only ones, who do so :-)

And to me it seems, that also the scientists have arranged with the
situation and that sometimes ridiculous hysteria and take some liberties
with that laws mess, because they know exactly, that there wouldn't be any
advance without the hunters and they are grateful, that they're doing that
job.
(And I guess, in case, the Smithonian has enough work to do with the
Antarctics - what should they do with a scientifically boring ordinary
chondrite like Lorton, not to mention a strongly weathered Nevada H5...)

Hey, hadn't Jeff recently reported that the - ooops I almost wrote "owner" -
holder of that new Australian meteorite, was it Cunnamulla(?) was allowed by
Bevan et al to keep two slices and to get an export permit for them,
although by the federal law the meteorite belongs to the state?
See I there the dawn of a Perestroika in Australia?
Very well so! But don't stop - and the Kingdom of Heaven soon will be yours!

Huh just yesterday I looked for some of these regional Aussie meteorite
laws. Some are too funny.
Some say, the finder is compelled to announce and to deliver the meteorite
to the museum
and will get compensated the costs of the deliverance.
(Hmm at least I would then eat 3 days nothing and would then visit an
expensive restaurant on the way to the museum).
Anyway, some of them are highly antiquated, fossils from pre-desert times
and could need a face-lift.
But also some let the possibility open for a reward. How about 80% of the
stone....

Well all in all - I think today no modern scientist or curator, at least if
he is specialized in meteorites and has the competence and experience in his
field, would bring someone to court for the "crime" to have recovered a new
meteorite.

But a higher legal certainty and a sound legal protection,
for the private heroes recovering all these meteorites for us and for their
nations,
like the Count says,
would be highly desired and necessary.

(Except in Bavaria, here we need definitely no clarification nor meteorite
laws.
Cause here are living civilized people of good reason,
of course it may sound somewhat old-fashioned, not to say behind the times,
but imagine: We ALL here are still excited and extremely happy whenever a
new meteorite is found!!!)

Best!
Martin


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
Meteorites USA
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. September 2010 21:43
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?

I would agree 100% with the Count on this one!

I'm sick and tired of listening to the rhetoric of the naysaying jerks
and lazy brained elitists who don't recover meteorites or would make
them off-limits to everyone but themselves. The problem with these
idiots are that they are selfish egotists who want to hoard the
meteorites for museums, and MISLEAD the public into believing that's the
way it should be by claiming that meteorite hunters are bad, and that
they are "preserving history and culture". Their propaganda is that
"meteorite hunters are damaging the science. Let us protect that
science." Yet they forget that if it weren't for professional private
sector meteorite hunters their precious collections wouldn't exist! More
than HALF of their "fresh" meteorites were most likely recovered by
professional private sector meteorite hunters who got there before any
rain or weathering could take place.

Their argument is a crock! and everyone knows it, but people are afraid
to ruffle feathers, make waves, or step on toes. "Shhhhhh..." people
say, "...it'll go away if we don't say anything..."

Yeah, our "rights" will go away if we don't do something together, as a
group of responsible and professional meteorite hunters, scientists,
enthusiasts, collectors, and hobbyists.

The propaganda argument is a bogus BS misleading attempt to deflect and
misinform the public of what professional meteorite hunters actually do,
and completely ignores the fact that most of the meteorites that make up
institution collections today are there BECAUSE professional meteorite
hunters made them available!

The same people that profess Nininger was a great man, also love to surf
on his legendary and groundbreaking science. They attach themselves to
Nininger like leeches, and say "look at us" we love Nininger. Yet if
they lived back in the days of Nininger, they might have condemned him
just as they seem to be condemning modern day meteorite hunters now.
Hypocrites all! These are most probably the same people that would have
everything governed "by the state" and not "by the people, for the
people". I thought this was America.

There is no meteorite law. There's only a misinterpretation of the Act
that the BLM hangs it hat on.
There is no language anywhere (that I can find) in all the statutes,
regulations, and law that states the Smithsonian is entitled to
meteorites found on federal land. (it's only in on BLM sites and
publications the BLM produces)

I stated a LONG time ago that there was a group that could be formed
very easily that would gather together the public, scientists and the
professional meteorite hunters in a unified association that could very
well protect the rights we know are granted us as American citizens.

There is a happy medium agreement that can be made that will benefit
both public science, and the private sector. SHARE! That's all that
needs to be done. Share with the people, and do it for the people. Share
with scientists, share with hunters, share with the public, educate and
inform!

We either do it or we don't... Don't whine, bitch or moan about it later
when we can't hunt if we don't do something about it now.

Unless we come together I'm afraid our laws might go the way of other
countries who's laws restrict the recovery of meteorites, and that my
friends will stifle the science we love so...

Regards,
Eric
Received on Fri 24 Sep 2010 05:17:11 PM PDT