[meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2010 23:49:05 +0200
Message-ID: <008701cb5c32$4f8e7f10$eeab7d30$_at_de>

>Maybe not half, but a fair share...

Ehm Eric,

Something like that exists.
The hunter gives 20%/20g to the state/university/museum of each stone, he
wants to be classified.

Where is the problem?

If that's not enough, MetSoc shall change the rules globally.

If we then have peace and quiet with all that laws menace, a dream for all
sides would come true.

I fear only, that some scientists in meteoritical developing countries
wouldn't yet be mature enough for such a regulation.

Note, that in many countries nobody cries for meteorite laws.
Japan, England, Germany, Canada changed its policies, since then all are
happy...., France..

Do you realize something? Exactly, these are countries leading in meteorite
research!

They know why they need no laws!

And who has introduced more recently meteorite laws?
China, Argentina, Algeria, Poland....

All countries, where no or not anymore meteorite research exist.

Can this correlation be random only?

Ehm, and that's why I'm somewhat worried, if I hear, that in USA
restrictions are planned.
I guess, that is then a case, where the U.S. meteorite researchers should
raise an alarm.
You over there have such a nice curve in the graph finds/year - up, up and
away.
How fast that can crash, you see on Australia.

(....hmm, when meteorites from the stock of the institutes are consumed for
research.... is then something like a negative annual find rate possible?)

;-)
Martin



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
Meteorites USA
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. September 2010 22:54
An: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?

Mike, again, I agree 100% with your statements below... Including this one.

"...to prevent further regulation of meteorites, is to act like
professionals, conduct ourselves as good honest people, and be generous
with our finds to science and outreach..."

I agree to the extent that the "professionalism" is not outwieghed at
any point by "political correctness". Honesty and transparency is key
here. This can be accomplished with a professional group of individuals
including the scientists, professional meteorite hunters, collectors,
educators, and the public at large.

Since I probably ruffled some feathers of some people with my last post
on one side of the fence, I'll make it equal and this might irritate the
meteorite hunters a bit too.

My suggestion is to share. That's always been my philosophy, and that
the way I believe it should be done to progress the science and the
interest in meteorites.. Some professional hunters don't like that.. I
don't blame them, change is hard.

But at the same time we want to hunt on federal land too. To do that we
must give something to get something. However we should NOT give up our
rights to hunt!

That's why a propose a percentage share contract with the government
with regard to hunting on federal land. If you, as a professional
meteorite hunter find a meteorite on federal land, you do have a point
that you spent your money and resources and effort to recover that
stone. But, at the same time the government is allowing you to hunt
there by simply governing the land you're hunting on. A share is fair
and in order if this is to move forward and any progress is to be made.

Split it....

Ouch! I know, hunters are probably thinking "WHAT!? I spent my time and
money to find it, and you want me to give half to the government?"

Maybe not half, but a fair share... What's good for the goose is good
for the gander. I really don't know what that means, but it seems
appropriate. You can't point the finger at one without pointing the
finger at yourself too.

As a professional meteorite hunter, private researcher, or scientist, we
all have a responsibility to recover meteorites responsibly. This
includes hunting WITH permission on land you don't own, being
respectful, courteous and fair of the landowner, fill dig holes, and
share what you find with those that allow you to hunt. Whether they are
private landowners or the government of the USA.

People can argue "the rule of law" all day long. But it comes down to
one thing. Give a little bit... We'll all probably be better off for it.

Regards,
Eric






On 9/24/2010 1:06 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Here is a problem we face in a nation like America. On the one hand,
> we like to keep any government regulation to a minimum, but on the
> other hand, we often defer to (or call out for) government
> clarification (regulation) when it comes to private matters.
>
> We wouldn't be seeing a "need" or "case" for regulation if people on
> all sides of the equation would behave like rational human beings.
> But we have people who driven by profit and people who are driven by
> ego, and this occurs on both the public and private side of the issue.
> This leads to unnecessary conflicts over catalyst events that should
> never have taken place to start with.
>
> Case in point, access to the Bar-T-Bar Ranch land around Meteor
> Crater. We wouldn't see the current hard-line stance against
> prospectors if those same prospectors had not left cattle gates wide
> open, deep holes unfilled, and trash on the land they were searching.
> And if we didn't have big egos disregarding logic, then we wouldn't
> see the current hard-line stance against private involvement by
> institutions and museums. Both sides, private and public, are giving
> the opposing side ammunition to fight with, when it reality, there
> should be no conflict in the first place.
>
> It's like how we hate getting pulled over for a ticket for speeding
> because it's necessary to keep the highways safe from people who might
> do more than our own self-rationalized speeding. The same people who
> curse the cop who writes the ticket, will call that same cop in a
> hurry if an armed gang is invading their home. We don't want the
> government, yet we can't seem to get along with each other without it.
>
> The best thing we could do, as private individuals, to prevent further
> regulation of meteorites, is to act like professionals, conduct
> ourselves as good honest people, and be generous with our finds to
> science and outreach. If profit is the focus of our activities then
> the government is always going to come knocking with it's hand out and
> the regulation pen in the other hand.
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
>
> PS - no government or entity created in modern human history "owns" a
> meteorite. It's a 4+ billion year old relic of creation itself. Any
> where it decides to drop in is decided by luck and chance, and anyone
> who claims ownership of it is merely in denial over the fact that they
> are a temporary caretaker at best.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone& Ironworks Meteorites
>
> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
> EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> On 9/24/10, Steve Dunklee<steve.dunklee at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree and support the Count in his wish for clear laws on ownership of
>> found meteorites. I guess that as what I was really trying to say. I was
>> also supprised this did not come up when there was a fund started to give
a
>> meteorite to the school. When meteorites were found on school property.
>> Cheers Steve
>>
>> On Fri Sep 24th, 2010 3:22 PM EDT Greg Hupe wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi Guido and List,
>>>
>>> I had a question/thought about this topic as well. Since farmers operate
on
>>> BLM land through a lease agreement with the state, wouldn't their lease
>>> dictate that any meteorites found on top "of the earth" of the leased
>>> property belong to the farmers, as the Lorton case may suggest? If this
is
>>> accurate and/or law, I would think that any meteorites found "under the
>>> earth" of a farmer's leased BLM land would be open game to the finders,
>>> unless said BLM was off limits to meteorite collecting. Does this sound
>>> accurate as far as the current BLM lands where it is still 'legal' to
hunt
>>> on BLM land? If BLM land becomes 'illegal' to hunt for meteorites,
>>> wouldn't it still be legal to hunt on BLM land if hunters get written
>>> permission (basically a permit) from the farmers who lease the land from
>>> the BLM? Hunters could then hunt on the leased portion and any
meteorites
>>> found "on top of the earth" would be 'legal' to keep! I guess this
>>> reasoning boils down to the
>>>
>> wording the BLM/farmer lease agreement has regarding any minerals,
objects,
>> meteorites, artifacts, etc. making any such materials stay the property
of
>> the state, or if not mentioned, than the assumption would be that the
farmer
>> has the right to 'farm' these materials.
>>
>>> Just some thoughts to ponder...
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> ====================
>>> Greg Hupe
>>> The Hupe Collection
>>> NaturesVault (eBay)
>>> gmhupe at htn.net
>>> www.LunarRock.com
>>> IMCA 3163
>>> ====================
>>> Click here for my current eBay auctions:
>>> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnaturesvault
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:<countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "Steve Dunklee"<steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>;<almitt2 at localnet.com>;
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 3:02 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Steve said "...it must belong to the school."
>>>>
>>>> I respectfully disagree with this statement and with the statement "
>>>> ...it belongs to the Smithsonian."
>>>>
>>>> Public schools do not in themselves "own" property. The lands and
>>>> improvements are typically the assets of local, or state government
>>>> (i.e.. the citizens of that county, or state.) Their maintenance and
>>>> operation are usually governed by an elected Board of Trustees. They,
if
>>>> made aware, would most probably decide the disposition of a find.
>>>>
>>>> Federal lands, including National Parks, Wilderness Areas, Mining
Claims,
>>>> Restricted Areas and lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management are
>>>> subject to a hodge podge of regulations that directly, or indirectly
>>>> affect the taking of meteorites. There is no "all encompassing
directive
>>>> that says all meteorites on all Federally held land "belongs" to the
>>>> Smithsonian.
>>>>
>>>> Consider a " mining claim" or a "homestead" being proved up. There are
>>>> many other examples...including the "issuance of a permit to hunt
>>>> meteorites specifically on Federal, or State lands." Something I have
>>>> personal experience with having recently joined with the permit holder
to
>>>> search ;ands off limits to those without a permit.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, in many states, Nevada being one, I have seen metorites
>>>> considered minerals and as those mineral rights are with held from fee
>>>> simple ownership of land. Therefore, the land owner has no right to the
>>>> minerals on his own land. He must is sublect to complicated state
mining
>>>> and oil exploration law.
>>>>
>>>> This whole business is messy and arbitrary and can lead to no good. I
>>>> would like the meteorite community to develop a lobbying arm to educate
>>>> state and federal lawmakers and monitor and promote legislation that
>>>> protects us before, not after, our activities are banned.
>>>>
>>>> Please spare us the arguments that it is expensive, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Count Deiro
>>>> IMCA 3536
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>
>>>>> From: Steve Dunklee<steve.dunklee at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Sent: Sep 24, 2010 11:05 AM
>>>>> To: almitt2 at localnet.com, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Who owns the meteorite?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ownership of meteorites is pretty clear in United States law. The
owner
>>>>> of a meteorite is the land owner. If one falls on my land it is mine.
If
>>>>> one falls on your land it is yours. If one falls on federal land it
>>>>> belongs to the Smithsonian. So if one lands in a school yard it must
>>>>> belong to the school. Other countrys may have different law. Cheers
>>>>> Steve Dunklee
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu Sep 23rd, 2010 12:48 AM EDT almitt2 at localnet.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ron and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this is going to be the case, if you get a permit to hunt federal
>>>>>> lands then you are being granted a lease to hunt and all material
>>>>>> should belong to the finder then. Perhaps this is an interpatation of
>>>>>> the law we can live with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --AL Mitterling
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quoting R N Hartman<rhartman04 at earthlink.net>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So regarding the article, in essence this interpretation is saying
>>>>>>> that if you have a lease on land at which time a meteorite lands on
>>>>>>> it, you have legal rights to it. But you must have the lease, not
be
>>>>>>> wandering down a public road or across a school yard, or even being
on
>>>>>>> a dry lake or the open desert. Yes??
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron Hartman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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Received on Fri 24 Sep 2010 05:49:05 PM PDT