[meteorite-list] ASU suspends public meteorite identification program

From: Yinan Wang <veomega_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:42:48 -0500
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=X24s7GYmB3qrkucQB3znOWgQnjV5zUxe0vfiD_at_mail.gmail.com>

This might seem like an amateurish question; but where would I turn to
now to have unidentified meteorites classified and not just
identified?

-Yinan

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com> wrote:
> Hi Richard, Great post, and points... I agree that the numbers won't work
> when actually 'classifying' meteorites, or even using a university lab to
> visually examine a suspect/possible meteorite. The small "fee" would be
> insignificant and not economically practical I understand for a university
> lab. Besides that, there is a process already in place for classification.
> This I would hazard a guess is why ASU is stopping their meteorite ID
> program. It's just not cost effective and it bogs down the real
> classification work. I was not referring to a university lab being used in
> the "identification" process though.
>
> There is a clear distinction between identification and classification in
> the meteorite world. Classifying a meteorite is a completely different story
> than IDing a piece of magnetite. This is a two edged sword I know.
>
> My point is this. It's worth the small "fee" for a private sector business
> to "weed" through the 1000 meteorwrong submissions to get to the 1 that has
> a better chance of being a meteorite. This in turn frees up the time of the
> university lab scientist to do actual classification work. His/her time is
> now spent on "pre-qualified" leads/submissions instead of non-meteorites and
> it becomes much more efficient. Prequalifying suspect meteorites through
> this process would work to alleviate the abuse, and would weed out those
> false meteorites at the same time.
>
> The numbers I ran are simple. Most meteorite people I know make between
> $25/hr-$50/hr in their day jobs. It might be worth a $25-$50 fee for
> meteorite experts to field the meteorwrong submissions, to get to that .1%
> that are meteorites before submitting them to a lab. Visually examining a
> suspect stone takes less than 1 hour of time to get a reasonable and
> accurate idea whether a stone is a meteorite or hunk of basalt.
>
> I would put forth there are many meteorite experts here on list and within
> the meteorite world that can identify a suspect meteorite with a very high
> degree of accuracy. Most are very experienced in spotting/examining the
> obvious magnetite, basalt, and river rocks that are constantly submitted by
> finders.
>
> At the very least it would shrink the pool of wrongs, and increase the
> percentage of meteorites submitted to the labs for classification.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> On 9/8/2010 1:37 PM, Richard Kowalski wrote:
>>
>> Eric,
>>
>> I'm not sure if you've "run the numbers" on what such a service would
>> cost, but lets talk a few numbers, that I admit are essentially pulled out
>> of thin air.
>>
>> Salary for a full time researcher, with no benefits, $35000 per year (and
>> that's on the low side)
>> Lab, minimum cost of $1000 per month, just for the space, with no
>> equipment.
>> Lab costs, minimum of $100 per hour.
>> Lab equipment, I won't even make a guess at this, but minimum, would be
>> many 10s of thousands of dollars for a properly equipped lab.
>>
>>
>> So, say the researcher can spend 5 full hours each day actually examining&
>> ?studying the specimens. The rest of the day is spent doing other related
>> tasks. That means 25 hours per week or 1250 hours per year (only two weeks
>> vacation per year)
>>
>> Using the three numbers I cite $35,000 + $12,000 + 125,000 means that at a
>> minimum a facility would need to charge at least $137.60 per hour just to
>> break even on these costs. Of course many institutions charge overhead of as
>> much as 50% so now that hourly cost is double.
>>
>> If you provide the researcher with any benefits at all and you have to
>> equip the lab with even a high quality polarizing microscope, your hourly
>> costs go up in proportion to how much equipment is in the lab and how
>> rapidly those costs can be depreciated. Need another employee that deals
>> with administration? Well your hourly fees have to go up again.
>>
>> Agreed that if you offer a service that at has a minimum fee of $300 just
>> to open the package and let you know you have a meteor-wrong, most of these
>> submissions will vanish. However, how many people would be willing to spend
>> the $300 base fee to be told by an expert, in effect "certify" the rock they
>> know is a meteorite in fact a meteorite? How many of those would then pay
>> the many hundred or thousands of dollars more for this commercial company to
>> classify the meteorite? Few to none I suspect.
>>
>> As I said I'm pulling these numbers out of thin air, but I'd guess that
>> those of you getting meteorites classified, if you are paying under several
>> hundred dollars per hour in fees to get it done, are getting an incredible
>> bargain. This is often because the costs are passed on to the taxpayer that
>> funds your institution of choice.
>>
>> I doubt any of the meteoriticists doing this at an institution have
>> figured out a per hour or per classification cost, but my guess is that my
>> estimate is well below actual costs.
>>
>> --
>> Richard Kowalski
>> Full Moon Photography
>> IMCA #1081
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Meteorites USA<eric at meteoritesusa.com> ?wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> From: Meteorites USA<eric at meteoritesusa.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ASU suspends public meteorite
>>> identification program
>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 11:40 AM
>>> I would think a "paid" meteorite
>>> identification service might alleviate some of the burden of
>>> abuse. This would have a screening effect on those that
>>> would normally be adamant that their Earth rock is a
>>> meteorite even in the presence of evidence it's not. People
>>> that won't take no for an answer probably wouldn't spend money to have it
>>> examined professionally in the first
>>> place. Supplement your time with a small fee. This will weed
>>> out those in denial.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/8/2010 11:26 AM, Adam Hupe wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it was just a matter of time. ?You can only
>>>>
>>>
>>> tie up your resources looking
>>>
>>>>
>>>> at so many meteorite wrongs before it interferes with
>>>>
>>>
>>> budget and time
>>>
>>>>
>>>> management. ?I no longer look at
>>>>
>>>
>>> solicited/suspected meteorites from unknown
>>>
>>>>
>>>> parties for the same reasons. Most think their finds
>>>>
>>>
>>> are going to make them the
>>>
>>>>
>>>> latest millionaires and do not want to hear the
>>>>
>>>
>>> truth. ?Dreams are free unless
>>>
>>>>
>>>> you are the one characterizing the object. Some get
>>>>
>>>
>>> very angry when you tell
>>>
>>>>
>>>> them what they have is not a meteorite and they are
>>>>
>>>
>>> not that easy to find
>>>
>>>>
>>>> regardless of what they saw on TV or read on some
>>>>
>>>
>>> website. You can only be
>>>
>>>>
>>>> abused so many times before the process becomes less
>>>>
>>>
>>> enjoyable.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here is to finding real meteorites!
>>>>
>>>> Adam
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
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Received on Wed 08 Sep 2010 05:42:48 PM PDT