[meteorite-list] YD impact - doing as best they can
From: oxytropidoceras at cox.net <oxytropidoceras_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:59:31 -0500 Message-ID: <20091112145932.KLZZJ.936878.imail_at_eastrmwml43> In response to " Newly Published Junk Science on Younger Dryas Impact" at: http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2009-November/058066.html E.P. Grondine stated: "All I can do is re-iterate that there is no reason for several of the peoples to have made up stories of this impact, other than that it did occur. So I have a very pro-impact bias, which you can dismiss as nonsense based on fairly tales if you like.? First a problem is that Native American oral history is not a straight forward historical account as you insist that it is. It also includes tribal religious beliefs and moral instruction. As a result, history has been interpreted to support religion. Also, it contains symbolism, which cannot be separate from historical observations. Thus, it is a mistake to insist that Native American tradition be interpreted literally just like Young Earth creationists insists the Bible be interpreted literally. You are making materialistic interpretations of literature that hopefully mixed together with significant amounts of religious revelation, symbolism, and teaching. Finally, the Native American oral history lacks any precise and reliable chronology. Even though oral history make mentions of an event, it is impossible for you or anyone else to argue that an event described in oral history is contemporaneous a hypothesize Younger Dryas event. The events that you talk may have happened hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands years before the were first recorded in written form. There is a lack of any means of securely dating events described in oral history even if their reality and character is correctly interpreted by you. If civilization was to crumble in the near future and either the ?Stars Fell on Alabama? lyrics were to survive, in oral tradition, this cataclysm, I can vision future archaeologists and anthropologists arguing over whether this song is evidence of the event that caused the fall of our civilization or an earlier cataclysm at the end of the Pleistocene. If this song was only preserved in oral history, there would be no way of determining when the event recorded in this song occurred. Grondine further wrote: ?Except for the sudden drop in population evidenced by the ending of quarry usage." This interpretation, as a number of interpretations is hotly disputed and remains unsettled at this time. ?While Firestone is a nuclear physicist with little geological training, in point of fact the layer with the markers is thin - there was not much material deposited by this impact, unlike Chicxulub and Shiva. So unless Ivester was very careful in his sampling, he could have missed it.? You are completely confused here. Dr. Firestone?s comments concerned only optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) dating) done by Ivester. The dismissive remarks by Dr. Firestone had nothing to with impact ejecta or indicators of any type. Your comments about Ivester missing a thin impact layer are totally beside the point and irreverent to the discussion. ... irreverent Vogon Poetry about NASA omitted... Grodine continued: ?Also, it is entirely possible that neutron production in impact threw off Ivester's OSL dates. (Odessa again.)? If you take the time to read what is published about OSL dating, you will find that what you propose above scientifically bankrupt nonsense. This is just a lame ad hoc hypothesis to arbitrarily dismiss some unpleasant facts. Grodine continued: ?As far as one point of impact goes, I can agree with you about not being in the Lakes. Why? The Five Nations would not have survived and left us their account of it. I still favor the Kiscoty, Alberta structure. Perhaps there are other similar structures evidencing impacts in ice sheets elsewhere, but then NASA is spending $0 looking for them.? Do you mean ?Kitscoty?, not ?Kiscoty?? The 2009 SEIS impact crater database does not list any such reported impact structure. ...more Vogon Poetry about NASA and Morrison omitted... Finally, Grodine stated: ?Dr. Firestone must be getting closer to nailing this one down, or he would not upset you so.? Given that Firestone has only managed with his latest article to the get the attention of a single rather unimportant, insignificant person, me, who only has a M.S. in Geology and the other 99.999 percent could care less about what he wrote in it, it appears that Dr. Firestone nailed only his thumb and nothing else according to the above logic. In sharp contrast, the papers written by Dr. Kennett and others have gotten the attention of major researchers and generated additional research, and publication. Best Regards, Paul H. Received on Thu 12 Nov 2009 02:59:31 PM PST |
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