[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
From: Mark Grossman <markig_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:02:24 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c89cae$37761ff0$6501a8c0_at_QED> Hi Martin, I understand your points, and I am not tracking back meteorites in the hope of getting something for nothing. I am doing by best to track back specimens that are selling for hundreds of dollars per gram, and I am making my best effort to ensure that I don't get burned. Let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. That information came from another dealer with an excellent reputation. Regarding other samples, I have contacted dealers who had no idea where they obtained the specimens from - not even the names of the other dealers, never mind museums. Bottom line - based on what I confirm or don't confirm, then I can decide whether I want to make the purchase of a rare specimen. It's just being an educated consumer. And the dealer with the good names who worked hard for those names are usually the ones that are the most happy to answer all the questions, and in most cases, have some sort of records. That's one of the reasons why they are good dealers in my opinion. For me, tracking back samples is also fun. Sometimes it leads to a dead end, but sometimes it leads to fantastic information about who donated the sample you just purchased to a museum. Some collectors are interested in this; others not. What is the minimum amount of information that a dealer should have in my opinion? At the very least, he or she should have some receipt or record of where he or she obtained the sample (that is, at a minimum, a record of the last transaction). I don't think this is expecting too much. And what you say is true. When buying from dealers with good reputations, it's likely not much tracking is necessary to obtain a comfort feeling about the sample. However, with certain dealers, or unknown dealers, it's important to track and confirm some information to decide whether to purchase the specimen or not. And unfortunately, with some dealers and very rare specimens, checks with museums are certainly not out of the picture. And meteorite collecting is very similar to autograph collecting where each letter is unique. And establishing the authenticity and provenance is always important. I'm talking about collecting letters of about 100 to over 200 years old of famous scientists, and those letters can sell for several hundred to several thousands of dollars. And in the autograph field, attempts to track back letters, and asking questions dealers about provenance are considered part of the norm. There are also good dealers you can trust - again, the ones that usually supply the most information. And there are other dealers where you have to be careful. But no one takes any real issue with questions and attempts to track back a letter. And it really should be no different for meteorite collecting. So to repeat again - let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. Just my two cents! Mark Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Hi too, some thoughts... Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in space desired to fall on Earth. But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory. In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time. Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable regalia of absolute authenticity, but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem. Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these of today. (And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not its provenience). If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on. And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were acquired, those who did it, long passed away.... Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone. In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they will be always deficient. I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on, Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered. But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the stones with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more than any scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he has no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't make an scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything else than that as evidence. Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still quite some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years from now? And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when such a system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine, but we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers acquired like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes. Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much. Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites. And on the other hand it would be a matter of price. Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100 or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt. The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other specimens, they have a lot to loose. Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of the collectors. >From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation. If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined solely by the material itself. Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact numbers, how many of each were issued. And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant. There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they worked hard for those good names, but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that for a few bucks. As always only thoughts..... Martin -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark Grossman Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36 An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? Martin, Mike and all, I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample. I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to check on the provenance of samples. A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic". In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen. Mark Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com> To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? > Hi Mike and all, > > I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on > ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the > authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving > statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your > money back !!" > > Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class > collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge > of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in > preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens. > > For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and > Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are > the auction links. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_ W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971 1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253 > > Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I > have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some > pictures: > > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg > > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg > > http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg > > Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of > Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to > contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its > number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and > historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of > Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by > its low selling price. > > Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few > have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an > Nininger quote to back up its provenience. > > Other thoughts? > > Martin > > > > On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote: > > Bob, > > > > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your eBay > > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a > > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came from (if > > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's > > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own. > > > > Still waiting for an answer (the truth). > > > > Kind regards, > > > > Mike Bandli > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com > > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bob Evans > > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM > > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ? > > > > > > > > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk as > > meteorites on ebay > > > > Case in Point : > > http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00 > > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity : > > > > Dear maccers531, > > > > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them for > > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain areas > > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new fell > > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but i > > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full refund > > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk " > > > > > > - deazombie > > > > Duh ! > > > > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability to > > spell correctly and use proper grammar. > > > > BE > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > http://www.meteoritecentral.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ______________________________________________ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list Received on Sat 12 Apr 2008 11:02:24 AM PDT |
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