[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 18:38:00 +0200
Message-ID: <00f301c89cbb$92b4f7d0$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi again,

no of course, I didn't meant that this way.
Tracking back specimens, to find out through whose hands and collecions they
travelled, is a fascinating detective work and the very sample will gain the
more information about one can find out.
I only wanted to make the point, that e.g. a label of a museum or of a
famous collector is per se not a proof whether a specimen is that, what is
written on the very label or not to a greater extend, as if the label would
have be painted by a good dealer - and that the tkws given in the official
records don't exclude the possibility of the existence of further pieces of
the very fall.

What I see some more critically is the distrust a few collectors have and
the fear - as mentioned - to be burnt.

I think, colleting meteorites is one of the safest field of collecting of
all.
Meteorites are a so extremely rare collectibles, that you have only two
handful of dealers and also a very limited number of specialized collectors,
who are selling.
Almost everyone knows everyone in meteoritics.
Especially those dealers, who constantly and frequently offer rarest
historic falls and finds are always the same. For many years.
And on the other hand, many collectors own samples of historic material to
compare, not so few have even a scientific background and access to
analysing devices.
As told, crucial for dealing with meteorites is the mutual trust and the
reputation.
Do you really think, that a professional dealer would risk to destroy this
relation to his collectors and the reputation in the scene, in trying to
burn the clients in selling a cheap meteorite as a similar looking historic
fall?
The risk that it will be revealed is high. Who would buy from him in future?
And would his most important customers, spending their money for remarkable
specimens of superrare historic finds and falls, still buy then from him?
He would be ruined.

Additionally the collector has another safety through IMCA, which will take
action, if such a case happens and the seller is a member of IMCA.

And thirdly - in which field of collection, do you have an independent,
non-commercial institution, which is not interested in the field of private
collecting at all, but which despite is trying to document and to approve
everything and all objects of that field of collecting, as it does the
MetSoc?

Take the art market. There if someone had studied something in that
direction, he has to pass an exam, and then he's allowed to call himself a
certified and authorized expert and then he's writing his certificates for
the paintings - and then it's authentic. If he's not experienced enough, if
he had a bad day, if he simply made an error - bad luck for the buyer.

But how are the meteorites "produced" today, which will be the historical
ones of tomorrow? The dealers go to Morocco, there in their very own
interest, they have to tell the meteorites apart from terrestrials, as else
they would loose their investment and likewise the hunters, who spend a lot
of funds for their expeditions - these people are true experts for
meteorites,
but that's not enough - no they have to hand their finds in to a few
recognized labs, where the cr?me de la cr?me of meteorite scientists of the
world put them through their paces and at the end it still has to pass the
central institution of approval
and then it's a meteorite (and a collectible).

I don't know, but I don't know any field of collecting, where everything is
so strictly handled like with meteorites.

And what I meant with ebay and not so reliable sellers, is, that if my
appendix soon would explode I wouldn't necessarily go to a barber, but
rather would consult a surgeon.

That specimens should have a standardized passport, and also the dividing
and subdividing should be documented in this way, was suggested several
times here.
Well, one could introduce that, but then, you all have to buy first more
meteorites, that the dealers could afford to employ a secretary...

Well and in principle (today I write this word to often) you're facing that
problem also in selling meteorites to non-specialized collectors.
You often here: How can you prove, that this piece is a real meteorite and
that it is a sample from that find or fall.
One can. Take the 10$ Sikhote-Alin individual, or the 5$ Nantan crumb,
cut off a piece, go to a lab with a microprobe and let measure the Ni, Ga,
Ge, Ir, Au values - pay 1000$+, which it costs to run the microprobe.
Then you have probably the 100% safety - but if the people would pay 1010$
instead of 10$...I really don't know.

Another point would be the sharks, Rob talked about....
Go in a shop, ask there, where they got their goods they are selling from,
as you expect that the meteorite dealers should do,
well, I guess, a few would be tempted to try to buy from the supplier of the
shop then...

Thoughts, are only thoughts...
Martin

 
 

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Grossman
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 17:02
An: Martin Altmann; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Hi Martin,

I understand your points, and I am not tracking back meteorites in the hope
of getting something for nothing. I am doing by best to track back
specimens that are selling for hundreds of dollars per gram, and I am making
my best effort to ensure that I don't get burned.

Let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only one email for me to
find out that the information that I was given about where a dealer had
obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect. That information came from
another dealer with an excellent reputation. Regarding other samples, I
have contacted dealers who had no idea where they obtained the specimens
from - not even the names of the other dealers, never mind museums.

Bottom line - based on what I confirm or don't confirm, then I can decide
whether I want to make the purchase of a rare specimen. It's just being an
educated consumer.

And the dealer with the good names who worked hard for those names are
usually the ones that are the most happy to answer all the questions, and in
most cases, have some sort of records. That's one of the reasons why they
are good dealers in my opinion.

For me, tracking back samples is also fun. Sometimes it leads to a dead
end, but sometimes it leads to fantastic information about who donated the
sample you just purchased to a museum. Some collectors are interested in
this; others not.

What is the minimum amount of information that a dealer should have in my
opinion? At the very least, he or she should have some receipt or record of
where he or she obtained the sample (that is, at a minimum, a record of the
last transaction). I don't think this is expecting too much.

And what you say is true. When buying from dealers with good reputations,
it's likely not much tracking is necessary to obtain a comfort feeling about
the sample. However, with certain dealers, or unknown dealers, it's
important to track and confirm some information to decide whether to
purchase the specimen or not. And unfortunately, with some dealers and very
rare specimens, checks with museums are certainly not out of the picture.

And meteorite collecting is very similar to autograph collecting where each
letter is unique. And establishing the authenticity and provenance is
always important. I'm talking about collecting letters of about 100 to over
200 years old of famous scientists, and those letters can sell for several
hundred to several thousands of dollars. And in the autograph field,
attempts to track back letters, and asking questions dealers about
provenance are considered part of the norm. There are also good dealers you
can trust - again, the ones that usually supply the most information. And
there are other dealers where you have to be careful. But no one takes any
real issue with questions and attempts to track back a letter. And it
really should be no different for meteorite collecting.

So to repeat again - let's not lose site of the big picture - it took only
one email for me to find out that the information that I was given about
where a dealer had obtained a very rare specimen was incorrect.

Just my two cents!

Mark Grossman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
To: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?


Hi too,

some thoughts...

Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and
would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in
space desired to fall on Earth.

But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory.

In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty
will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time.

Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable
regalia of absolute authenticity,
but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside
from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from
private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem.

Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no
Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected
specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these
of today.
(And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of
science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not
its provenience).

If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the
original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find
are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette
stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on.
And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic
mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left
only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the
London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were
acquired, those who did it, long passed away....

Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws
as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be
incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone.

In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or
publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they
will be always deficient.
I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that
tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on,
Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and
so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered.
But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had
here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that
the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the
fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc
didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA
and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the
strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by
himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the stones
with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more than any
scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he has
no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't make an
scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything
else than that as evidence.
Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still quite
some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years
from now?

And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when such a
system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine, but
we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many
stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers acquired
like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes.

Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each
specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc
was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much.
Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the
whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional
dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the
collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites.

And on the other hand it would be a matter of price.
Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical
specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous
museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the
authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100
or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt.

The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other
specimens, they have a lot to loose.
Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of
the collectors.
>From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation.

If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any
historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the
provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined
solely by the material itself.

Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a
catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact
numbers, how many of each were issued.

And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant.
There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they
worked hard for those good names,
but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the
flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that for a
few bucks.

As always only thoughts.....
Martin






-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Grossman
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36
An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli
Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Martin, Mike and all,

I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted
the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample.

I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to
check on the provenance of samples.

A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin
of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any
more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic".

In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance
of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be
verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen.

Mark Grossman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com>
To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?


> Hi Mike and all,
>
> I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on
> ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the
> authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving
> statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your
> money back !!"
>
> Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class
> collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge
> of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in
> preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens.
>
> For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and
> Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are
> the auction links.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_
W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971
1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253
>
> Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I
> have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some
> pictures:
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg
>
>
http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg
>
> Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of
> Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to
> contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its
> number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and
> historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of
> Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by
> its low selling price.
>
> Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few
> have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an
> Nininger quote to back up its provenience.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your
eBay
> > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a
> > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came
from (if
> > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's
> > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own.
> >
> > Still waiting for an answer (the truth).
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Mike Bandli
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Evans
> > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM
> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk
as
> > meteorites on ebay
> >
> > Case in Point :
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00
> > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity :
> >
> > Dear maccers531,
> >
> > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them
for
> > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain
areas
> > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new
fell
> > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but
i
> > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full
refund
> > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk "
> >
> >
> > - deazombie
> >
> > Duh !
> >
> > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability
to
> > spell correctly and use proper grammar.
> >
> > BE
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > http://www.meteoritecentral.com
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
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Received on Sat 12 Apr 2008 12:38:00 PM PDT