[meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:42:33 +0200
Message-ID: <008b01c89c9a$ae788610$177f2a59_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi too,

some thoughts...

Of course it would be desirable if a cut of a meteorite could be tracked and
would be documented without gap back to the very day, when the chunk in
space desired to fall on Earth.

But I think with old falls that wish will always stay illusory.

In my eyes most attempts to track back a specimen to get a 100% certainty
will lead in the utmost cases only to shift the problem back in time.

Indeed labels of a large and famous museum is regarded as untouchable
regalia of absolute authenticity,
but if we are strict: We know that the large collections were built, aside
from trades with other institutions, mainly by purchase and donations from
private parties - and here we are laid back to the same problem.

Especially if we keep in mind, that that happened in those times, where no
Meteoritical Society existed to care for a record of the tkws and collected
specimens, and in times, where the possibilities of analyses were not these
of today.
(And of course not different from today - in 19th centry in the focus of
science whas the research on the properties of the material itself and not
its provenience).

If you check, you'll find many locales haunting the Catalougue, were the
original provenience is lost and where the location of their initial find
are collections of museums and universities! Where did the famous Lafayette
stem from? Slagheck's iron... and so on.
And today, I'm very sure, there are slumbering especially in smaller
universities, as meteorites are (still today) an exotic fringe of classic
mineralogy, remarkable amounts of known historic falls. Orphans, having left
only a label hanging around the neck like lost pieces of luggage in the
London airport. Nobody can't remember, wherefrom and when they were
acquired, those who did it, long passed away....

Of course it's commendable, that MetSoc or MetBase tried to capture the tkws
as complete as possible - but it's only an attempt, it always has to be
incomplete and the figures of kgs and grams aren't carved in stone.

In fact those figures there are based only on collection catalogues and or
publications of meteorite scientists. So regarding the historical finds they
will be always deficient.
I mean you see it in these cases, which might be in your opinion not that
tragic - with the mass irons like Gibeon, Sikhote-Alin, Canyon and so on,
Where you still today will find the old estimations of Nininger, Krinov and
so on - although really everyone knows, that many tons more were recovered.
But also with modern falls - just take Chiang Khan, which we recently had
here - the Catalogue is unnecessarily improper. I mean it's no secret that
the geological survey of Thailand immediately found a few days after the
fall a big chunk, which is in the university of Bangkok - but the MetSoc
didn't noticed it, additionally the Catalogue lists a larger piece at UCLA
and finally Oliver Alge's finds - he spent all in all a whole year in the
strewnfield, receiving specimens from the locals, digging up a few by
himself - had hundreds of interviews with eyewitnesses, compared the stones
with others from collections and institutes - so he did by far more than any
scientist - but his finds never will find their way into the tkw, as he has
no degree in geology or mineralogy hanging on the wall, so he can't make an
scientific publication - but as Jeff told, MetSoc doesn't accept anything
else than that as evidence.
Or take Kainsaz. Now we know all, that the Russian hunters found still quite
some amounts until 1999. We know it, but the collectors in hundred years
from now?

And again, we're talking about falls from 100 or 200 years ago, when such a
system of survey wasn't established - tracking back a specimen is fine, but
we don't know with most falls the initial point. We don't know how many
stones felt, how many the locals took home, how many greedy dealers acquired
like today and sold to private collectors and ended up in institutes.

Well and then to expect from dealers, that they should track back each
specimen they sold in a manner, which neither the museums, nor the MetSoc
was and is able to do - is certainly a little bit much.
Let's ask Zelimir, how much time he spent for his collection of the
whereabouts of Ensisheim specimens and then let's ask the professional
dealers how much working time they spend already now, to supply the
collectors and institutes with always new old and new meteorites.

And on the other hand it would be a matter of price.
Theoretically, only theoretically, a dealer could let throw each historical
specimen into a microprobe and could do the same with a specimen in a famous
museums collection and could compare the values, to improve the
authenticity, but whether the collector would pay then the costs, if a 100
or 200$ piece would cost then 1000$, I doubt.

The dealers have to rate the provenience and to compare with other
specimens, they have a lot to loose.
Buying meteorites is to a certain degree a matter of trust, from the side of
the collectors.
>From side of the dealer it is a matter of his reputation.

If this isn't sufficient for a collector, then he simply shouldn't buy any
historic specimens, then he should collect desert meteorites, where the
provenance is of less than secondary importance and the value is determined
solely by the material itself.

Meteorite collecting is different from stamp collecting, where you have a
catalogue, where all stamps are depicted, and where you have the exact
numbers, how many of each were issued.

And these endless ebay-discussions are in my eyes redundant.
There are dealers and collectors selling with excellent names and they
worked hard for those good names,
but aside from them: In general it is so silly to expect to get on the
flea-market without any risk an authentic Picasso or D?rer - and that for a
few bucks.

As always only thoughts.....
Martin

  
  
  


-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark
Grossman
Gesendet: Samstag, 12. April 2008 06:36
An: Dark Matter; Mike Bandli
Cc: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?

Martin, Mike and all,

I think you bring out an important point. You mentioned that you contacted
the Humboldt Museum to check on the provenance of a sample.

I have also contacted various museums and dealers in other countries to
check on the provenance of samples.

A seller can provide a potential buyer with information regarding the origin
of a specific sample, but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily carry any
more weight than saying "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic".

In the past, I have received very specific information about the provenance
of a historic specimen only to find out that the information could not be
verified by the party who reportedly supplied the specimen.

Mark Grossman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dark Matter" <freequarks at gmail.com>
To: "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net>
Cc: <Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?


> Hi Mike and all,
>
> I too am curious about some of the rare meteorites I see advertised on
> ebay, and I look forward to reading something that demonstrates the
> authenticity on these historic piece beyond the somewhat unnerving
> statement that "This meteorite is guaranteed to be authentic or your
> money back !!"
>
> Over the years I have acquired a sizable portion of a world-class
> collection among other special pieces and have above average knowledge
> of material distribution, and of course, a vested interest in
> preserving the reputation of the historic and valuable specimens.
>
> For example, some recent ebay offerings included Bialystok and
> Andover, two historic falls of extremely low distribution. Here are
> the auction links.
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bialystok-Meteorite-Rare-Historic-Howardite-from-Poland_
W0QQitemZ250229710427QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229710427
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Andover-Maine-Meteorite-Witnessed-Fall_W0QQitemZ25022971
1253QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250229711253
>
> Representatives of both these localities are in my collection and I
> have written about them in my Accretion Desk articles. Here are some
> pictures:
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/andover.jpg
>
> http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok.jpg
>
>
http://www.meteorite-times.com/Back_Links/2005/November/bailystok_number.jpg
>
> Although I have not chased down all the total weight of the pieces of
> Bailystok distributed over time, I have personally gone so far as to
> contact the Humboldt museum (the original source of my piece and its
> number) shed light on the distribution of this extremely rare and
> historic howardite. Therefore, the appearance of half a gram of
> Bailystok on ebay was somewhat extraordinary, only to be outdone by
> its low selling price.
>
> Andover is another matter. Its distribution is greater, but still few
> have comparison. At $425/g for an L6, I hope there is more than an
> Nininger quote to back up its provenience.
>
> Other thoughts?
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Mike Bandli <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote:
> > Bob,
> >
> > I'm sure there are a couple people on the list that benefit from your
eBay
> > authenticity posts, but maybe you could set that time aside for doing a
> > little research as to where your 'Zulu Queen' meteorite really came
from (if
> > it really is Zulu Queen). No sense it in pointing out other people's
> > authenticity issues if you can't back up your own.
> >
> > Still waiting for an answer (the truth).
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Mike Bandli
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> > [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Evans
> > Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 3:47 PM
> > To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> >
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] It was intuition ? OK ?
> >
> >
> >
> > I guess it amuses me when I get a response from some idiot selling junk
as
> > meteorites on ebay
> >
> > Case in Point :
> >
http://cgi.ebay.com/meteorites-and-collectables_W0QQitemZ110242519960QQihZ00
> > 1QQcategoryZ3224QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> >
> > Response to my inquiry regarding authenticity :
> >
> > Dear maccers531,
> >
> > " your not going to like this but its intuition ive been studying them
for
> > awhile now and i know what im doing because also when i check certain
areas
> > i found stuff at i go back later and ive recovered what ever else new
fell
> > around they are planetary and ill probably be told no its not real but
i
> > know they are and if you do not like them send them back for a full
refund
> > and also the magnet the look the fusion lets talk "
> >
> >
> > - deazombie
> >
> > Duh !
> >
> > Seems like all these people selling fakes one ebay share the inability
to
> > spell correctly and use proper grammar.
> >
> > BE
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> >
> >
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Received on Sat 12 Apr 2008 08:42:33 AM PDT