[meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 21:19:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <590651.5527.qm_at_web36910.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Dirk -

I suppose I'll just have to disagree with you on the
physical evidence for the Holocene Start Impacts.
Apparently the US National Academy of Science does as
well, as they just published the team's research in
their Proceedings.

>These myths were recorded not by the original
>peoples (native Americans)

Actually, Dirk, they were - read my book.

> This would be more interesting and useful IF the
> Elders had stated or reported to have said stone
> from sky (most native American languages, if not
all,
> have such words).

Actually, Dirk, later on different peoples had
specific words which they used for "comets", just as
we do, and they used them.

But at the earliest times, in the earliest allegories,
they often just used the word "snake". Its the
descriptions they used and the events described in
addition to this word "snake" that fills in the
meaning of "comet".

> These are as about as believable as the gold plates
> that Joseph Smith "found".

Whether and what you believe in or not is up to you;
that's a matter of faith, belief. I won't trouble you
as to your beliefs, or lack therof, as that's your
business - so please don't trouble me about mine.

But it is a fact that these beliefs themselves were
held by some people, and that fact constitutes a fact
in and of itself, indicating nothing more than that.
These were some people's beliefs.

I am not asking you to believe in the Creator, the
Great Spirit, and/or Mother Earth. I myself don't
believe that the Good Mind created "Adam" and "Eve" at
Big Lick, Kentucky. It's an "allegory", to use an
European expression. For example, the Five Nations
remembered a cave where their ancestors survived the
Holocene start impacts.

What I'm asserting to you as fact is that the earliest
religious tales of some of the First Peoples, the
creation allegories, contain memories of the Holocene
Start Impact events, and how the ancestors survived
them.

I find your comparison of these well attested ancient
religious allegories with Joseph Smith's well attested
personal frauds to be offensive.

Do you really want to stand by such a display of a
lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to
reconsider that statement?

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas


--- drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ed, Sterling and List,
> Ed your interpretations of their "myths" and the
> other "myths" mentioning impacts (your
> belief-interpretation by adding [impact, comet,
> meteorite is sense-less]) have no bearing on fact or
> science. Even Holocene Start Impact is a belief and
> not a fact; Younger-Dryas group have few facts and
> very questionable at best to back their hypothesis.
> These myths were recorded not by the original
> peoples (native Americans) and just because some
> white
> guy printed it or took it down does not make it fact
> as I am sure he could not or did not understand what
> was conveyed to him by the Elders. These are as
> about
> as believable as the gold plates that Joseph Smith
> "found".
> Belief is not fact or science and should not be
> confused with such; the recorders of these myths
> that
> you cite have no anthropological background or
> scientific training on asking non-leading questions
> also. If you wish to continue to advertise your
> book
> please put AD in the subject title.
> This would be more interesting and useful IF the
> Elders had stated or reported to have said stone
> from
> sky (most native American languages, if not all,
> have
> such words).
> Comments and corrections accepted. Apologies if I
> am proved wrong.
> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>
>
> --- "Sterling K. Webb"
> <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, E.P., List,
> >
> > E.P. writes:
> > > ...After this the Good Mind created the first
> man
> > and
> > > woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified
> with
> > > Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of...
> > Cincinnati, Ohio...
> >
> > This would put the spot where Humanity was created
> > right on the site (or within a very few miles) of
> > the new
> > Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they built
> > their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden?
> >
> > And, you know? There are people that think that
> > God doesn't have a sense of humor?
> >
> >
> > Sterling
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
> > To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of
> the
> > Holocene Start Impacts
> >
> >
> > Hi all -
> >
> > I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to
> make
> > a
> > record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene
> > Start
> > Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's
> > manuscript, which was not available to me when I
> > assembled "Man and Impact in the Americas", and so
> > this tradition was not included in my book.
> >
> > You may want to watch the National Geographic
> > Channel
> > this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first
> > broadcast
> > of their new documentary on the Holocene Start
> > Impacts.
> >
> > A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS
> >
> > The following mythic tale of the Battle of the
> Good
> > Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the
> > Tuscarora,
> > and David Cusick's version of it from his
> "Sketches
> > of
> > the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was given
> > complete in my own book "Man and Impact in the
> > Americas".
> >
> > This shared tradition is not surprising, as
> > Iroquoian
> > people comprised the first of the three streams
> that
> > joined to form the Shawnee people. A later
> borrowing
> > of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out.
> >
> > The version given here came from Thomas Staind and
> > William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas
> Dougherty,
> > and preserved through the hard work of Albert
> > Gatschet.
> >
> > THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND
> >
> > One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind -
> > Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and
> the
> > other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche
> > Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born
> properly.
> > The second was not born properly; He was born from
> > his
> > mother's side.
> >
> > Both of them started off. The Creator headed for
> the
> > Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then
> they
> > both came to the Center (Taheliki).
> >
> > Then one of them wanted to know what they were
> going
> > to do, then one of them went to the East, the
> other
> > to
> > the West.
> > One of them by turning went towards the place
> where
> > the Sun rises(East).
> >
> > "Let us go (to the Center)" the Bad Mind said to
> the
> > Good Spirit (Mind),
> > "There we will look at what each of us has
> created.
> >
> > "Too much and too good have you created
> everything",
> > the Bad Mind said. "You have given them too much -
> > you
> > have created too much good. For everything was
> > created
> > so well that people would altogether be too lazy."
> >
> > [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as "When the Bad
> Mind
> > went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind,
> > "You created everything too well, the children
> will
> > be
> > too lazy."]
> >
> > Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind.
> > "Everything too badly you have created, even large
> > snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people.
> > You
> > have badly created even worse than that."
> >
> > [Dougherty(?) told this as "To the Bad Mind the
> Good
> > Mind said, "You created everything wrong while
> going
> > west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns
> > (cactus,
> > most likely a later western insertion of detail) -
> > and
> > your creations would be obnoxious to people.]
> >
> > Now then they were returning back to where they
> > started.
> > Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, "What are
> you
> > afraid of?"
> > "Of horns", he [the Good Mind] answered.
> > "And what are you afraid of?", he [the Good Mind]
> > asked.
> > "Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if
> > you
> > strike me.
> > [I now think it most likely that these "flags"
> were
> > some kind of poison used in hunting.]
> > Then the Bad Mind said "You first"
> > "Then not you will be first in turn? That is
> > agreeable.", said the Good Mind.
> > Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that
> > direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed.
> >
> > Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon
> > one
> > another, until they reached the piles of flags
> came
> > to
> > an end, and then they returned to the Center.
> >
> > Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that
> direction
> > he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him.
> >
> > Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that
> > direction. The Good Mind picked up the horns as he
> > was
> > running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these
> horns.
> >
> > Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and then
> > the
> > Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he tore
> > to
> > pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind]
> > killed
> > him [the Bad Mind].
> >
> > [THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here,
> > south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic or
> > may
> > preserve some actual memory of sequence.]
> >
> > Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to
> > burn
> > the Bad Mind up.
> >
> > Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire,
> it
> > burst out, to the South.
> > The Good Mind went and grabbed it, caught it, and
> > threw it back into the fire again.
> >
> > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire
> > to
> > the East, and
> > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it
> > back
> > into the fire again.
> >
> > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire
> > to
> > the North, and
> > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it
> > back
> > into the fire again.
> >
> > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the fire
> > to
> > the West, and
> > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw it
> > back
> > into the fire again,
> > this time bursting. It burst under the ground.
> >
> > "That's what I want to do with him", and then the
> > Good
> > Mind stamped on top of the ground.
> > He jumped up and down on where the Bad Mind's
> heart
> > had finally burst.
> >
> > Then the Good Mind thought of going home.
> > When he came there close to where they lived
> > [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good
> > Mind,
> > and the Bad Mind], and then he heard somebody at
> > where
> > they stayed.
> >
> > He stopped a little while, and then started to go
> to
> > the place again.
> > There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the
> Creator],
> > and she told him
> > "You [the Good Mind] have been naughty", she said.
> > "You have burnt the skin off of him [the Bad
> Mind]."
> >
> > THE CREATION OF PEOPLE
> >
> > Then the Good Mind felt bad, and he started to go
> > about feeling very bad.
> >
> > Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he sat
> > down.
> >
> > [After this the Good Mind created the first man
> and
> > woman at the Buffalo Lick. This Buffalo Lick may
> be
> > identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south
> > of
> > the modern city of Cincinnati, Ohio, as the active
> > flint quarries show this area to have been
> occupied
> > by
> > the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]
> >
> > Cusick added: "It is said in an account which I
> > believe to be fiction that these beings had the
> most
> > knowledge of good and evil. It is also said that
> the
> > beings became civilized people, and that they made
> > their residence in the south part of the Great
> > Island.
> > It is said that afterwards they were destroyed by
> > barbarous nations, and their fortifications remain
> > ruined unto this day."
> >
> >
> > Good Hunting,
> > E.P. Grondine
> > Man and Impact in the Americas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Received on Sat 06 Oct 2007 12:19:02 AM PDT