[meteorite-list] AD*: A Shawnee tradition of the Holocene Start Impacts

From: drtanuki <drtanuki_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 22:14:27 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <587631.54682.qm_at_web53202.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

List and Ed,

Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question.
----------------------------------------------------
"E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:"...

"Do you really want to stand by such a display of a
lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to
reconsider that statement?"
-----------------------------------------------------

Yes, I stand by my statements of fact. Place AD in
your posts please.

And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are
indeed "your" belief, thus not science.

  Belief posed as fact or science is poor scholarship,
as your book and excerpts clearly display.

  Also, lack of any primary research (nothing remotely
demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact) on your
part demonstrates that your arguments are lacking
physical proof and research.

 
  I will not reply further on your "deadhorse" topic;
there is no point arguing about your "belief".

Thank you.

Dirk Ross...Tokyo



--- "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Dirk -
>
> I suppose I'll just have to disagree with you on the
> physical evidence for the Holocene Start Impacts.
> Apparently the US National Academy of Science does
> as
> well, as they just published the team's research in
> their Proceedings.
>
> >These myths were recorded not by the original
> >peoples (native Americans)
>
> Actually, Dirk, they were - read my book.
>
> > This would be more interesting and useful IF the
> > Elders had stated or reported to have said stone
> > from sky (most native American languages, if not
> all,
> > have such words).
>
> Actually, Dirk, later on different peoples had
> specific words which they used for "comets", just as
> we do, and they used them.
>
> But at the earliest times, in the earliest
> allegories,
> they often just used the word "snake". Its the
> descriptions they used and the events described in
> addition to this word "snake" that fills in the
> meaning of "comet".
>
> > These are as about as believable as the gold
> plates
> > that Joseph Smith "found".
>
> Whether and what you believe in or not is up to you;
> that's a matter of faith, belief. I won't trouble
> you
> as to your beliefs, or lack therof, as that's your
> business - so please don't trouble me about mine.
>
> But it is a fact that these beliefs themselves were
> held by some people, and that fact constitutes a
> fact
> in and of itself, indicating nothing more than that.
> These were some people's beliefs.
>
> I am not asking you to believe in the Creator, the
> Great Spirit, and/or Mother Earth. I myself don't
> believe that the Good Mind created "Adam" and "Eve"
> at
> Big Lick, Kentucky. It's an "allegory", to use an
> European expression. For example, the Five Nations
> remembered a cave where their ancestors survived the
> Holocene start impacts.
>
> What I'm asserting to you as fact is that the
> earliest
> religious tales of some of the First Peoples, the
> creation allegories, contain memories of the
> Holocene
> Start Impact events, and how the ancestors survived
> them.
>
> I find your comparison of these well attested
> ancient
> religious allegories with Joseph Smith's well
> attested
> personal frauds to be offensive.
>
> Do you really want to stand by such a display of a
> lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to
> reconsider that statement?
>
> E.P. Grondine
> Man and Impact in the Americas
>
>
> --- drtanuki <drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Ed, Sterling and List,
> > Ed your interpretations of their "myths" and the
> > other "myths" mentioning impacts (your
> > belief-interpretation by adding [impact, comet,
> > meteorite is sense-less]) have no bearing on fact
> or
> > science. Even Holocene Start Impact is a belief
> and
> > not a fact; Younger-Dryas group have few facts and
> > very questionable at best to back their
> hypothesis.
> > These myths were recorded not by the original
> > peoples (native Americans) and just because some
> > white
> > guy printed it or took it down does not make it
> fact
> > as I am sure he could not or did not understand
> what
> > was conveyed to him by the Elders. These are as
> > about
> > as believable as the gold plates that Joseph Smith
> > "found".
> > Belief is not fact or science and should not be
> > confused with such; the recorders of these myths
> > that
> > you cite have no anthropological background or
> > scientific training on asking non-leading
> questions
> > also. If you wish to continue to advertise your
> > book
> > please put AD in the subject title.
> > This would be more interesting and useful IF the
> > Elders had stated or reported to have said stone
> > from
> > sky (most native American languages, if not all,
> > have
> > such words).
> > Comments and corrections accepted. Apologies if
> I
> > am proved wrong.
> > Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> >
> >
> > --- "Sterling K. Webb"
> > <sterling_k_webb at sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, E.P., List,
> > >
> > > E.P. writes:
> > > > ...After this the Good Mind created the first
> > man
> > > and
> > > > woman at the Buffalo Lick...may be identified
> > with
> > > > Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of...
> > > Cincinnati, Ohio...
> > >
> > > This would put the spot where Humanity was
> created
> > > right on the site (or within a very few miles)
> of
> > > the new
> > > Creation Museum. I wonder if they know they
> built
> > > their Biblical Theme Park in the Garden of Eden?
> > >
> > > And, you know? There are people that think that
> > > God doesn't have a sense of humor?
> > >
> > >
> > > Sterling
> > >
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
> > > To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 7:41 PM
> > > Subject: [meteorite-list] A Shawnee tradition of
> > the
> > > Holocene Start Impacts
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all -
> > >
> > > I hope you will bear with me here, as I need to
> > make
> > > a
> > > record of this Shawnee tradition of the Holocene
> > > Start
> > > Impacts. It comes from Albert S. Gatschet's
> > > manuscript, which was not available to me when I
> > > assembled "Man and Impact in the Americas", and
> so
> > > this tradition was not included in my book.
> > >
> > > You may want to watch the National Geographic
> > > Channel
> > > this Sunday at 10 Eastern time for the first
> > > broadcast
> > > of their new documentary on the Holocene Start
> > > Impacts.
> > >
> > > A SHAWNEE TRADITION OF THE HOLOCENE START
> IMPACTS
> > >
> > > The following mythic tale of the Battle of the
> > Good
> > > Mind and the Bad Mind was also held by the
> > > Tuscarora,
> > > and David Cusick's version of it from his
> > "Sketches
> > > of
> > > the Ancient History of the Six Nations, was
> given
> > > complete in my own book "Man and Impact in the
> > > Americas".
> > >
> > > This shared tradition is not surprising, as
> > > Iroquoian
> > > people comprised the first of the three streams
> > that
> > > joined to form the Shawnee people. A later
> > borrowing
> > > of this tale by the Shawnee can be ruled out.
> > >
> > > The version given here came from Thomas Staind
> and
> > > William Tookey, was elucidated by Thomas
> > Dougherty,
> > > and preserved through the hard work of Albert
> > > Gatschet.
> > >
> > > THE BATTTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND
> > >
> > > One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Mind
> -
> > > Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and
> > the
> > > other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche
> > > Manitou, the Bad Mind). The first was born
> > properly.
> > > The second was not born properly; He was born
> from
> > > his
> > > mother's side.
> > >
> > > Both of them started off. The Creator headed for
> > the
> > > Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then
> > they
> > > both came to the Center (Taheliki).
> > >
> > > Then one of them wanted to know what they were
> > going
> > > to do, then one of them went to the East, the
> > other
> > > to
> > > the West.
> > > One of them by turning went towards the place
> > where
> > > the Sun rises(East).
> > >
> > > "Let us go (to the Center)" the Bad Mind said to
> > the
> > > Good Spirit (Mind),
> > > "There we will look at what each of us has
> > created.
> > >
> > > "Too much and too good have you created
> > everything",
> > > the Bad Mind said. "You have given them too much
> -
> > > you
> > > have created too much good. For everything was
> > > created
> > > so well that people would altogether be too
> lazy."
> > >
> > > [Dougherty(?) elucidated this as "When the Bad
> > Mind
> > > went west, he returned, and said to the Good
> Mind,
> > > "You created everything too well, the children
> > will
> > > be
> > > too lazy."]
> > >
> > > Then the Good Mind spoke to the Evil Mind.
> > > "Everything too badly you have created, even
> large
> > > snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill
> people.
> > > You
> > > have badly created even worse than that."
> > >
> > > [Dougherty(?) told this as "To the Bad Mind the
> > Good
> > > Mind said, "You created everything wrong while
> > going
> > > west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns
> > > (cactus,
> > > most likely a later western insertion of detail)
> -
> > > and
> > > your creations would be obnoxious to people.]
> > >
> > > Now then they were returning back to where they
> > > started.
> > > Then the Bad Mind asked the Good Mind, "What are
> > you
> > > afraid of?"
> > > "Of horns", he [the Good Mind] answered.
> > > "And what are you afraid of?", he [the Good
> Mind]
> > > asked.
> > > "Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me
> if
> > > you
> > > strike me.
> > > [I now think it most likely that these "flags"
> > were
> > > some kind of poison used in hunting.]
> > > Then the Bad Mind said "You first"
> > > "Then not you will be first in turn? That is
> > > agreeable.", said the Good Mind.
> > > Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that
> > > direction he ran, and the Bad Mind followed.
> > >
> > > Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags
> upon
> > > one
> > > another, until they reached the piles of flags
> > came
> > > to
> > > an end, and then they returned to the Center.
> > >
> > > Then the Bad Mind ran to the west. In that
> > direction
> > > he ran, and the Good Mind ran after him.
> > >
> > > Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in
> that
> > > direction. The Good Mind picked up the horns as
> he
> > > was
> > > running, and he stuck the Bad Mind with these
> > horns.
> > >
> > > Then the Good Mind put a rock on himself, and
> then
> > > the
> > > Bad Mind struck him with these horns until he
> tore
> > > to
> > > pieces his own garment. Thus he [the Good Mind]
> > > killed
> > > him [the Bad Mind].
> > >
> > > [THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given
> here,
> > > south, east, north, and west may be ritualistic
> or
> > > may
> > > preserve some actual memory of sequence.]
> > >
> > > Then the Good Mind built a fire, as he wanted to
> > > burn
> > > the Bad Mind up.
> > >
> > > Then while the Bad Mind's heart was in the fire,
> > it
> > > burst out, to the South.
> > > The Good Mind went and grabbed it, caught it,
> and
> > > threw it back into the fire again.
> > >
> > > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the
> fire
> > > to
> > > the East, and
> > > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw
> it
> > > back
> > > into the fire again.
> > >
> > > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the
> fire
> > > to
> > > the North, and
> > > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw
> it
> > > back
> > > into the fire again.
> > >
> > > Then it [the Bad Mind's heart] burst from the
> fire
> > > to
> > > the West, and
> > > The Good Mind grabbed it, caught it, and threw
> it
> > > back
> > > into the fire again,
> > > this time bursting. It burst under the ground.
> > >
> > > "That's what I want to do with him", and then
> the
> > > Good
> > > Mind stamped on top of the ground.
> > > He jumped up and down on where the Bad Mind's
> > heart
> > > had finally burst.
> > >
> > > Then the Good Mind thought of going home.
> > > When he came there close to where they lived
> > > [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good
> > > Mind,
> > > and the Bad Mind], and then he heard somebody at
> > > where
> > > they stayed.
> > >
> > > He stopped a little while, and then started to
> go
> > to
> > > the place again.
> > > There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the
> > Creator],
> > > and she told him
> > > "You [the Good Mind] have been naughty", she
> said.
> > > "You have burnt the skin off of him [the Bad
> > Mind]."
> > >
> > > THE CREATION OF PEOPLE
> > >
> > > Then the Good Mind felt bad, and he started to
> go
> > > about feeling very bad.
> > >
> > > Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he
> sat
> > > down.
> > >
> > > [After this the Good Mind created the first man
> > and
> > > woman at the Buffalo Lick. This Buffalo Lick may
> > be
> > > identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the
> south
> > > of
> > > the modern city of Cincinnati, Ohio, as the
> active
> > > flint quarries show this area to have been
> > occupied
> > > by
> > > the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]
> > >
> > > Cusick added: "It is said in an account which I
> > > believe to be fiction that these beings had the
> > most
> > > knowledge of good and evil. It is also said that
> > the
> > > beings became civilized people, and that they
> made
> > > their residence in the south part of the Great
> > > Island.
> > > It is said that afterwards they were destroyed
> by
> > > barbarous nations, and their fortifications
> remain
> > > ruined unto this day."
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Hunting,
> > > E.P. Grondine
> > > Man and Impact in the Americas
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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Received on Sat 06 Oct 2007 01:14:27 AM PDT