[meteorite-list] Fw: all List members & Mike reThreatsfromMr Gregory

From: Michael Farmer <meteoriteguy_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 06:54:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <829769.22402.qm_at_web33109.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Martin, forget it, these people like Armando are not
operating on the level that most educated people work
on. Notice how in the last 4 years, Armando has posted
virtually NOTHING to this list other than slurs
against myself. As you said, I went from the other
side of the planet, month later, and bought/found
KILOS of Ourique. I guess Armando was just too lazy to
drive a few hours in his own country to do the same.
By the way, Armando, did you donate the large piece of
Ourique that was "given to you, not paid for" to a
museum, or is your greed forcing you to keep it in
your home, hidden from public view and unavailable to
scientific hands?
By calling me greedy, since I sell meteorites, then
you have insulted this entire meteorite list, because
nearly everyone on it has bought or sold a meteorite
at some time. And if you bought one, then you support
the selling of them, and thus, the business of
meteorites.
Have a nice day Armando, I am unpacking crates full of
meteorites from my last hunting trip. Over 88 new
meteorites, including some of the rarest types are in
those crates. My next few days will be very busy.
Your's will apparently be spent crying in spilt milk
over the neary 10 year old Ourique saga. GET OVER IT.
GROW UP. I beat you to it in your own country, months
after the fall.
Michael Farmer

--- Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de>
wrote:

> Hi Armando,
>
> but with your view we would have to throw Founder
> Chladni, Schreibers
> (father of modern meteoritics), Brezina, Daubree,
> Maskelyne, Reichenbach,
> Ward, Fletcher, Cohen, Nininger et al. out of the
> pantheon of meteoritics,
> cause they were all such immoral looters or bought
> from such unethical
> predators, you're complaining about.
> Not a single one of the top 20 institutional
> collections of the world,
> wasn't built up with meteorites, acquired in that
> way, which you condemn to
> be highly unethical!
>
> (Huh, I almost was tempted to ride the horse, what
> for immense treasures are
> assembled in the large museums of Portugal due to
> its colonial history).
>
> And Armando, how do you think that today science or
> art museums,
> universities, institutions are getting their stuff?
> They are simply buying
> it! Aside from a few donations (and be sure, that
> several meteorite dealers
> do donate too).
>
> Why should it be different with meteorites? The past
> showed, that those
> institutions weren't comparably successful in
> hunting meteorites as private
> expeditions were or that if they were successful the
> monetary expenses were
> much higher, than if they would have simply bought
> the stones either from
> the hunters, which are working on their own
> financial risk and expenses or
> in Morocco.
> The find quotas, the delivery of free material
> mandatory, if one wants to
> get a stone recognised, the expenses Antarctica or
> Space Flight versus
> buying prices, I don't have to itinerate here, as we
> had it a hundred times
> on the list here.
>
> And take the initial reason, why you are so furious
> about commercial
> dealers, which obviously was the circumstance, that
> Farmer bought Ourique.
> He's sitting on another continent, the seller was a
> private person, so why
> the heck couldn't have bought any Portuguese
> institution the stone from the
> finder? Why Farmer was able to recover months after
> the fall still
> fragments, which were scattered in wind&weather
> since Xmas around the pit in
> the dirt road??
> Do you think, it would be of concern to the owner of
> the stones, to whom he
> sells his stone? You could have travelled also there
> to "rescue" the stones
> for science.
>
> What do you think would be the best solution?
> National laws, which declare
> all meteorites being property of the respective
> state?
> Would that be fair to those laypeople, who discover
> the stones of new falls,
> would that be ethical against the land owners on
> whose properties old and
> new finds were made?
> Who would then go on the hunt? Nobody anymore and
> you simply could forget
> continuing the situation that hundreds and thousands
> of new and sometimes
> scientifically important meteorites would be
> retrieved.
> And why the heck, do you think, that j u s t the
> meteorite dealers and
> hunters should be so moral, to enforce laws to
> prohibit their work?
> Is it their job?
>
> And if you personally feel such ethical obligations,
> what keeps you away
> from raising funds to acquire meteorites to donate
> them to institutions, to
> "rescue" them for science. There are big collectors,
> who buy from time to
> time nice specimens to donate them to museums ect.
> So get started, Armando!
>
> And Ingo please:
>
> > I think like you in a way! Many dealers, who are
> part of this list, do
> > look at meteorites only in a profit oriented way.
> They are not really
> > interested in the material and its scientific
> importance. The list is
> > only a big publicity place for them, nothing more.
>
> Stop it, we can't hear it anymore!!!
> My experience with those apostles blaming the
> dealers to destroy their
> stones driven by greed is, that whenever you offer
> to exactly those
> accusants an entire stone or a substantial specimen,
> they will answer: Who, me? Why me? Oh no no, I'm
> much to poor...the others
> should... and so on. - or, if they have the budget
> to buy large pieces, they
> ward off such more moral offers in suggesting prices
> below the costs of the
> dealers and far below the costs, they would have to
> pay by themselves, if
> they would have organized the material (but in most
> cases they wouldn't have
> been able to do so at all).
>
> Do you think the dealers wouldn't like to spare time
> and work in selling
> their treasures as complete stones? It would by so
> comfortable for them!
> And honestly, you personally are no exception to
> that rule.
> (And I saw you in past of course selling small
> slices and cuts, also from
> your Moroccan exotic stones too, which you cut
> down).
>
> And not to forget Ingo & Armando, if there wouldn't
> exist those persons, who
> you are trying to criminalize,
> NOT a single piece of meteorite would be in your
> collections.
>
> Buckleboo.
> Martin
>
> PS: Armando, how are the results with the experiment
> with your butcher,
> baker...?
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Ingo,
> > You are right, the message was perhaps too strong.
> > I probably would take one or two words from it,
> now.
> > Patience.
> > But I still remember the insults that I received
> when the discussion was
> > with me.
> > Many of this so-called "meteorite hunters" are not
> far from criminals (at
> > least from a moral perspective), simply taking
> advantage of the absence of
> > specific legislation in most of the countries, and
> people`s naivety.
> > Call
> > it enterpreneurs attitude, if you prefer.
> > Some of them were selling hamburguers, or
> plumbing, before entering into
> > their new "scientific" activity...
> > I am sorry if I do not simpatize with them.
> > I must add that obviously SOME of them too are
> great people, with an
> > honest
> > interest and real knowledge on the subject.
> > Those would have much more to say in list than the
> usual "stars".
> > Regards.
> > AA
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ingo Herkstroeter" <metopaster at gmx.de>
> > To: "'Armando Afonso'" <armandoafonso at oniduo.pt>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:46 PM
> > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] all List members &
> Mike re ThreatsfromMr
> > Gregory
> >
> >
> > Hi Armando!
> >
> > I think like you in a way! Many dealers, who are
> part of this list, do
> > look at meteorites only in a profit oriented way.
> They are not really
> > interested in the material and its scientific
> importance. The list is
> > only a big publicity place for them, nothing more.
> > The cut the material into crumbs and tell they
> would
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Received on Fri 16 Mar 2007 09:54:02 AM PDT