[meteorite-list] Fw: all List members & Mike reThreatsfromMr Gregory

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 13:30:13 +0100
Message-ID: <01fc01c767c6$d8e06a80$e46dfea9_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Armando,

but with your view we would have to throw Founder Chladni, Schreibers
(father of modern meteoritics), Brezina, Daubree, Maskelyne, Reichenbach,
Ward, Fletcher, Cohen, Nininger et al. out of the pantheon of meteoritics,
cause they were all such immoral looters or bought from such unethical
predators, you're complaining about.
Not a single one of the top 20 institutional collections of the world,
wasn't built up with meteorites, acquired in that way, which you condemn to
be highly unethical!

(Huh, I almost was tempted to ride the horse, what for immense treasures are
assembled in the large museums of Portugal due to its colonial history).

And Armando, how do you think that today science or art museums,
universities, institutions are getting their stuff? They are simply buying
it! Aside from a few donations (and be sure, that several meteorite dealers
do donate too).

Why should it be different with meteorites? The past showed, that those
institutions weren't comparably successful in hunting meteorites as private
expeditions were or that if they were successful the monetary expenses were
much higher, than if they would have simply bought the stones either from
the hunters, which are working on their own financial risk and expenses or
in Morocco.
The find quotas, the delivery of free material mandatory, if one wants to
get a stone recognised, the expenses Antarctica or Space Flight versus
buying prices, I don't have to itinerate here, as we had it a hundred times
on the list here.

And take the initial reason, why you are so furious about commercial
dealers, which obviously was the circumstance, that Farmer bought Ourique.
He's sitting on another continent, the seller was a private person, so why
the heck couldn't have bought any Portuguese institution the stone from the
finder? Why Farmer was able to recover months after the fall still
fragments, which were scattered in wind&weather since Xmas around the pit in
the dirt road??
Do you think, it would be of concern to the owner of the stones, to whom he
sells his stone? You could have travelled also there to "rescue" the stones
for science.

What do you think would be the best solution? National laws, which declare
all meteorites being property of the respective state?
Would that be fair to those laypeople, who discover the stones of new falls,
would that be ethical against the land owners on whose properties old and
new finds were made?
Who would then go on the hunt? Nobody anymore and you simply could forget
continuing the situation that hundreds and thousands of new and sometimes
scientifically important meteorites would be retrieved.
And why the heck, do you think, that j u s t the meteorite dealers and
hunters should be so moral, to enforce laws to prohibit their work?
Is it their job?

And if you personally feel such ethical obligations, what keeps you away
from raising funds to acquire meteorites to donate them to institutions, to
"rescue" them for science. There are big collectors, who buy from time to
time nice specimens to donate them to museums ect.
So get started, Armando!

And Ingo please:

> I think like you in a way! Many dealers, who are part of this list, do
> look at meteorites only in a profit oriented way. They are not really
> interested in the material and its scientific importance. The list is
> only a big publicity place for them, nothing more.

Stop it, we can't hear it anymore!!!
My experience with those apostles blaming the dealers to destroy their
stones driven by greed is, that whenever you offer to exactly those
accusants an entire stone or a substantial specimen,
they will answer: Who, me? Why me? Oh no no, I'm much to poor...the others
should... and so on. - or, if they have the budget to buy large pieces, they
ward off such more moral offers in suggesting prices below the costs of the
dealers and far below the costs, they would have to pay by themselves, if
they would have organized the material (but in most cases they wouldn't have
been able to do so at all).

Do you think the dealers wouldn't like to spare time and work in selling
their treasures as complete stones? It would by so comfortable for them!
And honestly, you personally are no exception to that rule.
(And I saw you in past of course selling small slices and cuts, also from
your Moroccan exotic stones too, which you cut down).

And not to forget Ingo & Armando, if there wouldn't exist those persons, who
you are trying to criminalize,
NOT a single piece of meteorite would be in your collections.

Buckleboo.
Martin

PS: Armando, how are the results with the experiment with your butcher,
baker...?




> Hi Ingo,
> You are right, the message was perhaps too strong.
> I probably would take one or two words from it, now.
> Patience.
> But I still remember the insults that I received when the discussion was
> with me.
> Many of this so-called "meteorite hunters" are not far from criminals (at
> least from a moral perspective), simply taking advantage of the absence of
> specific legislation in most of the countries, and people`s naivety.
> Call
> it enterpreneurs attitude, if you prefer.
> Some of them were selling hamburguers, or plumbing, before entering into
> their new "scientific" activity...
> I am sorry if I do not simpatize with them.
> I must add that obviously SOME of them too are great people, with an
> honest
> interest and real knowledge on the subject.
> Those would have much more to say in list than the usual "stars".
> Regards.
> AA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ingo Herkstroeter" <metopaster at gmx.de>
> To: "'Armando Afonso'" <armandoafonso at oniduo.pt>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 1:46 PM
> Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] all List members & Mike re ThreatsfromMr
> Gregory
>
>
> Hi Armando!
>
> I think like you in a way! Many dealers, who are part of this list, do
> look at meteorites only in a profit oriented way. They are not really
> interested in the material and its scientific importance. The list is
> only a big publicity place for them, nothing more.
> The cut the material into crumbs and tell they would serve the science
> and so on..... They see the list as a place for personal fights and not
> as a place to let knowledge growth!
>
> I'm pissed of this behaviour and I know a lot of list members (like you
> and many more) too!
>
> Armando, please don't go down to their level and attack someone
> personally, like you have done in the mail below. This should not be our
> way!
>
> Try to make your protest in a smarter way....
>
> Best Wishes!
>
> Ingo
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von
> Armando Afonso
> Gesendet: Samstag, 10. M?rz 2007 23:12
> An: Michael L Blood; Michael Farmer; Meteorite List
> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] all List members & Mike re ThreatsfromMr
> Gregory
>
> Dear friends,
>>>From time to time, I take the time and patience to read what is
> happening in
> this list.
> Invariably, Mike Farmer is exchanging insults with someone...
> If this list was something near neutrality, this gentleman would have
> been
> banned long, long ago...
> Anyway, from a certain distance, this fights can be very amusing, too.
> Pitty that the only interest of the meteorites for this guys is the
> potential profit, nothing else.
> Apart from his predator attitude, arrogance, irritability and scientific
>
> ignorance, what are his atributes?
> AA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael L Blood" <mlblood at cox.net>
> To: "Michael Farmer" <meteoriteguy at yahoo.com>; "Meteorite List"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 8:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] all List members & Mike re Threats fromMr
> Gregory
>
>
>> on 3/10/07 8:11 AM, Michael Farmer at meteoriteguy at yahoo.com wrote:
>>> List members, this man is now making threats to my
>>> home and family...... Read this and tell me..........
>> --
>> Dear Mike and all,
>> Mike, would it help if you KNEW that NO ONE on the list wanted
>> to read ANY of the posts about issues you and this fellow have with
>> one another? If you knew that would you then spare us hearing about
> it???
>> I experience you as a fairly intelligent fellow, so, please,
> PLEASE
>> pay attention:
>> --------------
>> I suggest EVERYONE on the list think very carefully and decide
>> if they want to hear about this dispute between Mike and this fellow.
>> If even ONE list member WANTS to hear about it, please post to the
>> list your opinion to this effect.
>> -------------
>> Mike - if NO ONE responds, perhaps you could leave your
> emotions
>> in check for just a moment, fall back on your ample intelligence and
> keep
>> any communications with this fellow strictly between you and him, as
>> clearly, out of the hundreds of list members you will have heard for
>> yourself that NOT ONE of the list members wants to hear about it.
>> Sincerely, Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>


______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Received on Fri 16 Mar 2007 08:30:13 AM PDT