[meteorite-list] old chinese meteorite coins

From: ken newton <magellon_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed Sep 14 15:38:59 2005
Message-ID: <43287C4B.4020504_at_earthlink.net>

Zelimir and All,
The Meteorite Taipei site is composed of 99% 'wrongs.'
Good idea to verify the facts before believing this guy.
best,
ken
#9632
http://home.earthlink.net/~magellon/webwrongs.html


Zelimir Gabelica wrote:

> Hello Dirk, list,
>
> Regarding old chinese coins possibly made from meteorites, here is a
> document showing one of them from the Yuan dynasty, perdiod around
> 1341-1370 AD. (hope the link works).
>
> http://www.geocities.com/meteoritetaipei/well_being_a1.htm
>
> It happened that I could acquire such a coin, thus identical to the
> one pictured. Two questions arise.
>
> 1) Is this coin really made from some iron meteorite?
> I will be able very soon to bring some answer by submitting the coin
> to a non destructive (EDX) analysis and check for Fe and Ni and
> possibly for other elements. The detection of only Fe (along some
> other metals but without Ni) would mean it is a fake, which, according
> to what is claimed in the text, could posibly constitute the oldest
> fake of an object supposedly being made from a meteorte.
> If the piece is really genuine (as claimed by the antiquarian seller)
> it should bear major Fe and minor Ni (say from 6 to about 20% Ni) but
> only traces (if any) of other elements (for example, the presence of
> Si, P, S...can also account for possible silicate, phosphide,
> sulfide... inclusions in the original meteoritic iron).
> And, last but not least, if only Fe and Ni are detected, this can also
> always correspond to some old artificially made coin from a (Fe,Ni)
> alloy (very unlikely though).
> I will keep you informed on the future analytical results.
> So far did someone (or Dirk) ever came across of such a coin and did
> someone analyze it ?
>
> 2) In case this coin appears to be a meteorite, could someone
> (possibly Dirk, who seems to be very well documented) guess which
> meteoritic iron was used to make such a coin?
> Many old falls are indeed documented or at least vaguely mentioned in
> the old chinese literature. But possibly not such old falls.
> The coin could also stem from some old meteoritic iron find in this
> vast area. The original meteorite was perhaps also found also out of
> the present chinese borders?
>
> 3) It is not impossible that the seller may get some more of such
> coins (I am crossing the fingers) so that it would be even more
> interesting to analyze several such coins and compare.
>
> Other considerations:
>
> - My coin has a typical square hole (Earth) and is rounded (Sky), as
> recently pointed out by Dirk.
>
> - My piece is moderately weathered (rust) but the ideograms can be
> clearly seen. I can make a photo, if someone interested.
>
> - The fact that this coin was not made to circulate as money but
> rather to give extra power and protection to the owner (see text in
> the link) could argue for its genuine meteoritic origin. The question
> here is how many of such coins could have been made ? Probably rather
> few...unless they were made out of a huge iron like Hoba.
> To my (poor) knowledge, the famous Armanty meteorite, the enormous
> IIIE 28 tons iron found in Xinjiang and now exhibited in Urumqi
> (pronounce "urumutchi") does not show cut sides. But there are so many
> other potential meteoritic iron finds....
>
> The story is to be continued but I'd be glad to read any further
> comment or idea.
>
> All the best,
>
> Zelimir
>
> A 09:53 14/09/05 -0700, vous avez ?crit :
>
>> Dear List and Chris,
>>
>> Todays research results from ancient Chinese
>> literature:
>>
>> Ref: Needham, Vol.III, 20. Astronomy, pg. 434
>>
>> "Meteorites had many other names in Chinese books
>> besides the yun already mentioned, or yun-shih.
>> Further information is contained in a valuable chapter
>> by Chang Hung-Chao, who points out that one of the
>> oldest names must be that contained in the Shan Hai
>> Ching (Ch. 16), namely thien Chhuan, `hounds of
>> heaven`. He also notes that meteorites were often
>> confused (as in other civilisations) with stone axes
>> of the Neolithic period. There is a reference to this
>> in the Chiu Thang Shu (Old History of the Thang
>> Dynasty), where, about +660, a meteorite presented to
>> the emperor was called `the stone axe of the
>> thunder-god` (Lei Kung Shih Fu). Other names were
>> `the thunder-god`s ink block_at_ (lei mo) or
>> `thunder-lumps` (phi li chen), and it is these which
>> formed the headings under which Li Shen-Chen in th
>> +16th century treated meteorites in his Pen Tshao Kang
>> Mu."
>>
>> Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>
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>
>
> Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
> Universit? de Haute Alsace
> ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
> 3, Rue A. Werner,
> F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
> Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
> Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>
>
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Received on Wed 14 Sep 2005 03:38:51 PM PDT