[meteorite-list] Re: old chinese meteorite coins

From: drtanuki <drtanuki_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed Sep 14 16:08:56 2005
Message-ID: <20050914200843.84105.qmail_at_web53209.mail.yahoo.com>

Zelimir,
  Beware of buying anything from Meteorite Taipei; he
is INFAMOUS for FAKES!!!!!!! There are many many fake
Chinese coins floating around especially in Taiwan. I
have collected Chinese coins for more than 25 years.
I have several authentic Yuan Dynasty iron coins but
the are all in the States. I hope your coin turns out
to be real. Contact me off-list and tell me how much
you paid for it. I will supply more info to those
that are interested, but perhaps NOT on the list.
Best, Dirk

--- Zelimir Gabelica <Z.Gabelica_at_uha.fr> wrote:

> Hello Dirk, list,
>
> Regarding old chinese coins possibly made from
> meteorites, here is a
> document showing one of them from the Yuan dynasty,
> perdiod around
> 1341-1370 AD. (hope the link works).
>
>
http://www.geocities.com/meteoritetaipei/well_being_a1.htm
>
> It happened that I could acquire such a coin, thus
> identical to the one
> pictured. Two questions arise.
>
> 1) Is this coin really made from some iron
> meteorite?
> I will be able very soon to bring some answer by
> submitting the coin to a
> non destructive (EDX) analysis and check for Fe and
> Ni and possibly for
> other elements. The detection of only Fe (along some
> other metals but
> without Ni) would mean it is a fake, which,
> according to what is claimed in
> the text, could posibly constitute the oldest fake
> of an object supposedly
> being made from a meteorte.
> If the piece is really genuine (as claimed by the
> antiquarian seller) it
> should bear major Fe and minor Ni (say from 6 to
> about 20% Ni) but only
> traces (if any) of other elements (for example, the
> presence of Si, P,
> S...can also account for possible silicate,
> phosphide, sulfide...
> inclusions in the original meteoritic iron).
> And, last but not least, if only Fe and Ni are
> detected, this can also
> always correspond to some old artificially made coin
> from a (Fe,Ni) alloy
> (very unlikely though).
> I will keep you informed on the future analytical
> results.
> So far did someone (or Dirk) ever came across of
> such a coin and did
> someone analyze it ?
>
> 2) In case this coin appears to be a meteorite,
> could someone (possibly
> Dirk, who seems to be very well documented) guess
> which meteoritic iron was
> used to make such a coin?
> Many old falls are indeed documented or at least
> vaguely mentioned in the
> old chinese literature. But possibly not such old
> falls.
> The coin could also stem from some old meteoritic
> iron find in this vast
> area. The original meteorite was perhaps also found
> also out of the present
> chinese borders?
>
> 3) It is not impossible that the seller may get some
> more of such coins (I
> am crossing the fingers) so that it would be even
> more interesting to
> analyze several such coins and compare.
>
> Other considerations:
>
> - My coin has a typical square hole (Earth) and is
> rounded (Sky), as
> recently pointed out by Dirk.
>
> - My piece is moderately weathered (rust) but the
> ideograms can be clearly
> seen. I can make a photo, if someone interested.
>
> - The fact that this coin was not made to circulate
> as money but rather to
> give extra power and protection to the owner (see
> text in the link) could
> argue for its genuine meteoritic origin. The
> question here is how many of
> such coins could have been made ? Probably rather
> few...unless they were
> made out of a huge iron like Hoba.
> To my (poor) knowledge, the famous Armanty
> meteorite, the enormous IIIE 28
> tons iron found in Xinjiang and now exhibited in
> Urumqi (pronounce
> "urumutchi") does not show cut sides. But there are
> so many other potential
> meteoritic iron finds....
>
> The story is to be continued but I'd be glad to read
> any further comment or
> idea.
>
> All the best,
>
> Zelimir
>
> A 09:53 14/09/05 -0700, vous avez ?crit :
> >Dear List and Chris,
> >
> >Todays research results from ancient Chinese
> >literature:
> >
> >Ref: Needham, Vol.III, 20. Astronomy, pg. 434
> >
> > "Meteorites had many other names in Chinese
> books
> >besides the yun already mentioned, or yun-shih.
> >Further information is contained in a valuable
> chapter
> >by Chang Hung-Chao, who points out that one of the
> >oldest names must be that contained in the Shan Hai
> >Ching (Ch. 16), namely thien Chhuan, `hounds of
> >heaven`. He also notes that meteorites were often
> >confused (as in other civilisations) with stone
> axes
> >of the Neolithic period. There is a reference to
> this
> >in the Chiu Thang Shu (Old History of the Thang
> >Dynasty), where, about +660, a meteorite presented
> to
> >the emperor was called `the stone axe of the
> >thunder-god` (Lei Kung Shih Fu). Other names were
> >`the thunder-god`s ink block_at_ (lei mo) or
> >`thunder-lumps` (phi li chen), and it is these
> which
> >formed the headings under which Li Shen-Chen in th
> >+16th century treated meteorites in his Pen Tshao
> Kang
> >Mu."
> >
> >Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
> >
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>
> Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
> Universit?Ede Haute Alsace
> ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
> 3, Rue A. Werner,
> F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
> Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
> Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
>
>
>



                
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Received on Wed 14 Sep 2005 04:08:42 PM PDT