[meteorite-list] old chinese meteorite coins

From: Zelimir Gabelica <Z.Gabelica_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed Sep 14 15:23:55 2005
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20050914204836.02773ac0_at_pop.univ-mulhouse.fr>

Hello Dirk, list,

Regarding old chinese coins possibly made from meteorites, here is a
document showing one of them from the Yuan dynasty, perdiod around
1341-1370 AD. (hope the link works).

http://www.geocities.com/meteoritetaipei/well_being_a1.htm

It happened that I could acquire such a coin, thus identical to the one
pictured. Two questions arise.

1) Is this coin really made from some iron meteorite?
I will be able very soon to bring some answer by submitting the coin to a
non destructive (EDX) analysis and check for Fe and Ni and possibly for
other elements. The detection of only Fe (along some other metals but
without Ni) would mean it is a fake, which, according to what is claimed in
the text, could posibly constitute the oldest fake of an object supposedly
being made from a meteorte.
If the piece is really genuine (as claimed by the antiquarian seller) it
should bear major Fe and minor Ni (say from 6 to about 20% Ni) but only
traces (if any) of other elements (for example, the presence of Si, P,
S...can also account for possible silicate, phosphide, sulfide...
inclusions in the original meteoritic iron).
And, last but not least, if only Fe and Ni are detected, this can also
always correspond to some old artificially made coin from a (Fe,Ni) alloy
(very unlikely though).
I will keep you informed on the future analytical results.
So far did someone (or Dirk) ever came across of such a coin and did
someone analyze it ?

2) In case this coin appears to be a meteorite, could someone (possibly
Dirk, who seems to be very well documented) guess which meteoritic iron was
used to make such a coin?
Many old falls are indeed documented or at least vaguely mentioned in the
old chinese literature. But possibly not such old falls.
The coin could also stem from some old meteoritic iron find in this vast
area. The original meteorite was perhaps also found also out of the present
chinese borders?

3) It is not impossible that the seller may get some more of such coins (I
am crossing the fingers) so that it would be even more interesting to
analyze several such coins and compare.

Other considerations:

- My coin has a typical square hole (Earth) and is rounded (Sky), as
recently pointed out by Dirk.

- My piece is moderately weathered (rust) but the ideograms can be clearly
seen. I can make a photo, if someone interested.

- The fact that this coin was not made to circulate as money but rather to
give extra power and protection to the owner (see text in the link) could
argue for its genuine meteoritic origin. The question here is how many of
such coins could have been made ? Probably rather few...unless they were
made out of a huge iron like Hoba.
To my (poor) knowledge, the famous Armanty meteorite, the enormous IIIE 28
tons iron found in Xinjiang and now exhibited in Urumqi (pronounce
"urumutchi") does not show cut sides. But there are so many other potential
meteoritic iron finds....

The story is to be continued but I'd be glad to read any further comment or
idea.

All the best,

Zelimir

A 09:53 14/09/05 -0700, vous avez ?crit :
>Dear List and Chris,
>
>Todays research results from ancient Chinese
>literature:
>
>Ref: Needham, Vol.III, 20. Astronomy, pg. 434
>
> "Meteorites had many other names in Chinese books
>besides the yun already mentioned, or yun-shih.
>Further information is contained in a valuable chapter
>by Chang Hung-Chao, who points out that one of the
>oldest names must be that contained in the Shan Hai
>Ching (Ch. 16), namely thien Chhuan, `hounds of
>heaven`. He also notes that meteorites were often
>confused (as in other civilisations) with stone axes
>of the Neolithic period. There is a reference to this
>in the Chiu Thang Shu (Old History of the Thang
>Dynasty), where, about +660, a meteorite presented to
>the emperor was called `the stone axe of the
>thunder-god` (Lei Kung Shih Fu). Other names were
>`the thunder-god`s ink block_at_ (lei mo) or
>`thunder-lumps` (phi li chen), and it is these which
>formed the headings under which Li Shen-Chen in th
>+16th century treated meteorites in his Pen Tshao Kang
>Mu."
>
>Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>
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Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
Universit? de Haute Alsace
ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
3, Rue A. Werner,
F-68093 Mulhouse Cedex, France
Tel: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 94
Fax: +33 (0)3 89 33 68 15
Received on Wed 14 Sep 2005 03:27:06 PM PDT