[meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues

From: John K. Gwilliam <jkg_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Sep 9 10:34:24 2004
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040909072314.026f8be0_at_mail.theriver.com>

I agree with Adam on this one. Technically, anyone with material that is
claimed to pair with any of the four different NWA numbers listed could
pick anyone of the four numbers. Is it possible that it would be in the
best interests of the seller to pick the NWA number that was either selling
for the highest price or had the lowest TKW? That's something to think
about. But, no matter what the reasoning or motive is, the TKW has now
been altered without altering the official records.

This reminds me of a situation I saw on Jerry Springer one time. A husband
and wife had eight children and the husband suspected that one of them
wasn't his. Spring and Co. paid for the DNA work to be done on the child
in question and low and behold, the husband ended up being the biological
father. When this was announced, the wife boldly stated, " there's your
proof you worthless $&**_at_#%...now you have proof that you're the father of
all eight kids." In reality, the only kid that was proven to belong to the
poor sucker was the one that was tested - all the rest of them could have
been fathered by someone else.

We have long debated the issues surrounding NWA meteorites and the special
problems they bring to the seller's/buyer's market. Why add to the
confusion by randomly picking which tested and proven NWA meteorite is the
father of the pieces you have in your possession? I originally thought
that giving a unique number to every meteorite coming out of NWA was
redundant and unnecessary. Now, I see that it might be the only way that
correct TKWs can be determined and preserved.

Best,

John Gwilliam

At 10:56 PM 9/8/2004, Adam Hupe wrote:
>Hi Stan,
>
>Just one more time. If these other stones are not accounted for, how can a
>true TKW be known? NWA 1110 is a very good example. The weight was
>reported and it was claimed to be paired to NWA 1068. This is more
>representative of the true TKW rather than picking a number out of a hat and
>adding weight to it without reporting it. Why not use 1068, 1083 or 1175,
>all reported pairings of the same stone. To pick the official number that
>we used in order to certify our pieces is wrong. We did the right thing.
>We paid the lab expenses, we submitted 20 grams for study and promoted the
>specimens. Do you think it is proper for anybody else to use NWA 1110 when
>it is a pairing that we paid all of the expenses for and took the time to do
>it right?
>
>All the best,
>
>Adam
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "stan ." <laser_maniac_at_hotmail.com>
>To: <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 10:10 PM
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
>
>
> > Adam,
> >
> > you make an acceptable argument for the stones to be authenticated, but
>the
> > notion that a new nwa number must be generated and that any more material
> > CANT be considered nwa 1110 just because there was a specific reported
> > weight is laughable.
> >
> > Will it serve the consumer's confidence that they have to navigate through
>a
> > quagmire of possible pairings to determine the true amount of material
> > avalible on the market before making a purchasing decision.
> >
> > Let the consumer decide if they choose to accept the word of the seller as
> > to the validity of their claimes - dont confuse them further by playing
>the
> > weight game.
> >
> > i know what the nomcom calls for, but if the nomcom said that all
>meteorite
> > collectors must wear purple leotards with pink polkadots all day friday
>i'm
> > pretty sure we would all tell them to go to hell. there comes a point
>where
> > you have to look out for the best intrest of your customers - not the
>rules
> > as set by an arbitary organization. at least imho
> >
> > stan
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
> > >To: "stan ." <laser_maniac_at_hotmail.com>
> > >CC: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
> > >Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:32:18 -0700
> > >
> > >Hi Stan,
> > >
> > >When it comes to something as important as planetary material I would say
> > >getting different numbers is the right thing to do just as long as
>pairings
> > >are mentioned like in the SAU and DAG series. The Dhofar lunar series is
>a
> > >different situation. TKWs are not known and pairings have not yet been
> > >established. I did not set the rules, the NomCom did. In my opinion
>every
> > >planetary piece should, especially without crust, be authenticated by and
> > >reported to a scientist. New numbers should be assigned and weights
> > >recorded. If they are found as fragments, the entire batch should be
> > >looked
> > >at and reported under one number as is the case of NWA 1110. Something
>as
> > >obvious as falls is a different matter. If a qualified person does not
> > >analyz something as important as planetary pieces do you think fragments
> > >without crust should be sold by just anybody who thinks they look
>similar?
> > >Will this provide the consumer with confidence that just anybody can call
> > >pebble anything they want?
> > >
> > >Kind Regards,
> > >
> > >Adam
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "stan ." <laser_maniac_at_hotmail.com>
> > >To: <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>; <bobe5531@comcast.net>
> > >Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 9:19 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
> > >
> > >
> > > > is there really any need for this?
> > > >
> > > > let's be realistic here for a moment.
> > > > sure an nwa number is assigned to specific fragments you reported -
>but
> > >if
> > > > the same EXTRAORDINARILY rare material is comming out of the same
> > >location,
> > > > being purchased from the same nomads (either by you, Habibi, or the
> > >French)
> > > > - then assigning each parcel that a dealer gets a new nwa number seems
> > > > nothing more than down right silly. all this serves to do is keep
>TKW's
> > >down
> > > > via artifical means...
> > > >
> > > > look at the TKW of nwa1929. what is it, 900g? whats the REAL tkw, 15kg
> > >or
> > > > so?
> > > >
> > > > if you bought a big allende from the field tomorrow are you going to
> > >send
> > >it
> > > > in as a possibly paired, new find and ask it to be assigned the name
> > > > allende(x)?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
> > > > >To: "Comcast Mail" <bobe5531_at_comcast.net>
> > > > >CC: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > > > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
> > > > >Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:20:33 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >Dear Bob,
> > > > >
> > > > >What you are doing is nothing short of fraud. All of the fragments
> > >that
> > > > >make up NWA 1110 weigh 118 grams and every piece was authenticated by
> > >Dr,
> > > > >Irving. Anything not pictured on this web-site link is not NWA 1110,
> > >plain
> > > > >and simple.
> > > > >
> > > > >http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/snc/nwa1110.html
> > > > >
> > > > >Nelson's pieces are paired to NWA 1068. NWA 1110 is also paired to
>NWA
> > > > >1068, as well. Pairing to a pairing is ridiculous, submit your own
> > >type
> > > > >sample, claim the extra weight and get your own number. The set of
> > >NWA1110
> > > > >pairings weigh exactly 118 grams, that's official, not a gram more.
>If
> > >you
> > > > >do not believe me ask the NomCom for the rules because it is not up
>to
> > >me
> > > > >to
> > > > >educate you. It is simple, send in a type specimen and have every
> > >crumb
> > > > >you
> > > > >sell looked at by a planetary scientist and I will acknowledge them
>by
> > > > >their
> > > > >new NWA number which will not be NWA 1110. Any dealer in the know
> > >should
> > > > >already know this. If you continue using NWA 1110 I will report it.
> > >This
> > > > >is not interference with an auction.
> > > > >
> > > > >Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >Adam
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Comcast Mail" <bobe5531_at_comcast.net>
> > > > >To: "Meteorite list" <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>; "Adam
>Hupe"
> > > > ><raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:09 PM
> > > > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Adam,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Im not sure what the pictures you provided were meant to prove,
> > >other
> > > > >than
> > > > > > you like taking pictures of nomads playing in the sand. Why
>weren't
> > >you
> > > > >or
> > > > > > Greg in the photo? Just curious
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Nwa 1110 that I am selling on ebay is the same meteorite that
> > >Nelson
> > > > > > Oakes is selling on his website. Are you calling him a fraud too?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adam, do you have a problem with healthy competition? I certainly
> > > > >believe
> > > > > > you do.
> > > > > > Is it really any mystery why Mike Farmer despises you? You
>certainly
> > > > >made
> > > > > > many accusations against him. And of course you couldn't prove any
> > >of
> > > > >them.
> > > > > > My point is ...... you havent seen the meteorite that Im selling
>so
> > > > >please
> > > > > > keep your opinions to yourself.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Were you ever physically at the NWA 1110 Strewnfield ? If so
>please
> > >show
> > > > > > some real proof ( not pictures of nomads in the sand ). How do you
> > > > >really
> > > > > > know that you got every specimen of NWA 1110 ?
> > > > > > Please answer these questions, because I really do want to know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please dont interfere with my auctions again. I have never done
>that
> > >to
> > > > >you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wishing everyone the best !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob Evans
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites_at_comcast.net>
> > > > > > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 7:18 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA 1110 issues
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dear List,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It has come to my attention that some sellers are still using
>the
> > >NWA
> > > > >1110
> > > > > > > designation to sell there untested material. It is not a
> > >marketing
> > > > >ploy
> > > > > > > that I bring this up as we are nearly out of stock and we start
> > >all
> > >of
> > > > >our
> > > > > > > true NWA 1110 auctions out at just 99 cents. Here are the
> > >problems:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We had Dr. Irving at the University of Washington authenticate
> > >every
> > > > >piece
> > > > > > > we have ever sold or plan to sell. All of it is recorded at 118
> > >grams
> > > > >can
> > > > > > > be seen at the JPL/NASA Martian web site. Other dealers selling
> > >NWA
> > > > >1110
> > > > > > > have not gone to this expense We have only supplied one dealer
> > >from
> > > > > > Austria
> > > > > > > with NWA 1110 and he is sold out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We paid the research and authentication costs associated with
> > >every
> > > > >piece
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > NWA 1110
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We deposited a type sample (something important if want your
>very
> > >own
> > > > >NWA
> > > > > > > number)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We paid the cost to go into the field, monitored the recovery
> > >efforts
> > > > >and
> > > > > > > recorded GPS coordinates.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Habibi of Morocco has been telling dealers he supplied us with
>NWA
> > > > >1110
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > so what he is selling is the same. This is not the truth as we
>do
> > >not
> > > > >do
> > > > > > > business with Habibi and never will. If you check the images
> > >below
> > > > >you
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > see we went directly to the source and recorded GPS coordinates:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa1110/nwa1110a.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa1110/nwa1110b.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa1110/nwa1110c.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.lunarrock.com/nwa1110/nwa1110d.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To see auctions like the one I linked to below really irritates
>us
> > > > >because
> > > > > > > no laboratory has tested this material, the dealer should
>deposit
> > >a
> > > > >type
> > > > > > > specimen, pay the lab fees and get his very own NWA number so
>that
> > > > >every
> > > > > > > gram of meteorites paired to NWA 1068 can be recorded if they
>are
> > > > >indeed
> > > > > > > meteorites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is what I would like to say to the person running this ebay
> > > > >auction
> > > > > > > "Stop using NWA 1110, get a real number, put out some effort,
> > >there
> > >is
> > > > >no
> > > > > > > such thing as a free ride":
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3239&item=2268561021
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wishing everybody the best,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adam Hupe
> > > > > > > The Hupe Collection
> > > > > > > Team LunarRock
> > > > > > > IMCA 2185
> > > > > > > raremeteorites_at_comcast.net
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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Received on Thu 09 Sep 2004 10:39:12 AM PDT