[meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business

From: S. Ray DeRusse <srd_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue Nov 16 20:38:25 2004
Message-ID: <419BFCE3.2040602_at_ispwest.com>

I want to comment to on the following statements made by Farmer;

How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with
cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see
that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize
if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone!

I think that you have to look into each individual case. On the whole, I
cannot believe that bona-fide experienced dealers are selling material
without minimal testing and just piggybacking their authenticity on
others' work. This is called plagiarism in certain settings and is a
serious offense. However notwithstanding the economic factors of
dealership, the scientific record is ill served by not doing at least
minimal testing because it tends to muddy the record where a person buys
  a sample that may be lost from the record forever. Unclassifed samples
and untested samples may be good candidates for a museum where the owner
  does not have the resources or inclination to devote to testing and
contributing to the record.

To Bill Mason who said the following about Meteorite Magazine.

"Just a suggestion to consider; after all it is our most important
meteorite news source.

Get Real!

S. Ray DeRusse and Bill Cutler
www.bccmeteorites.com


Mr. Farmer wrote;

Michael Farmer wrote:

> Again Michael, first off he is selling publicly, so why should it not be
> discussed publicly? The damage has been done to me in public, so I see
> no need to try and hush this up.
> I know that Edwin and you are good friends, and that you depend on his
> stuff for sale and for your auctions, so I would suggest to you that
> when you have stuff listed for your upcoming Tucson auction, that you
> make a disclaimer that tells people who submit that they better know
> what they are submitting and should have the rights to use the
> classification.
> I fear that a scene will ensue if I come into your auction and find
> meteorites being falsely sold there using my numbers.
> I have spoken privately today to several people and this is a problem
> which is about to explode.
> Freeloaders are too lazy or cheap to do their own work and are mooching
> off of those dealers and collectors who take the time and spend their
> hard-earned money to make all of the analyses. I will not stand by
> quietly while people are mooching off of my work, and selling an item
> using false pairing claims.
> This is extremely serious business.
> I have more money that you know invested in my work and my stones, and I
> will not allow people to try and lump their stuff under my numbers.
>
> How do you collectors feel? You are being had, being sold rocks with
> cards and the expectation that it is what they say it is, and now we see
> that isn't the case! Your stones may be worth far less than you realize
> if pairings are being made by looking at the outside of a stone!
> I think it is time to demand paperwork from your dealers, classification
> data on stones, showing that it is what they say, or is fully classified
> as a pairing.
> That is the only way we can stop this scam, is by forcing people to show
> documentation to prove it is what they claim it is.
> Michael Farmer
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael L Blood" <mlblood_at_cox.net>
> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net>; "Meteorite
> List" <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
>
>
>> Hi Mike,
>> The issue I made is NOT who is right or wrong.
>> If you were to post a very similar announcement,
>> saying you had addressed this issue with ET and was told to take a
>> long walk off a short pier and he didn't care what you thought
>> about what he was doing and you think collectors should be
>> aware this is going on - THAT WOULD BE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT
>> situation.
>> Instead, you FIRST publicly chastise him. Whatever
>> is going on - that is a poor start at ANY attempt for remedy,
>> regardless of the circumstances involved. You don't know
>> what is take on the situation is - you haven't even addressed
>> the issue with him. MAYBE there is a good explanation - MAYBE
>> there isn't. MAYBE he looked at it one way and will change his
>> perspective once he hears what you have to say - MAYBE he
>> won't.... we don't know, because YOU HAVEN'T TALKED TO HIM
>> ABOUT IT.
>> There are a good many of us who will be far more
>> interested in ANY issue you have with any other dealer IF you
>> report civil attempts to resolve the issue on your part met
>> with a lack of cooperation on their part.
>> THEN I start wondering what is going on. Then I start
>> listening to the content. However, when it is a one way mud
>> throwing event, all I see is mud throwing - the content is
>> unimportant to me if the process isn't clean.
>> Other than that, thanks for a relatively civil response on
>> your part.
>> Sincerely, Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> on 11/16/04 3:10 PM, Michael Farmer at meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net wrote:
>>
>>> Michael, you seem to leave out the obvious, he is using numbers for
>>> meteorites sitting in my safe, I paid to have classified and worked.
>>> Michael, can you explain that, or does it not matter since he is your
>>> friend.
>>> This is very simple Michael, no genius needed here.
>>> I will make it simple though
>>> Guy A owns an item.
>>> Guy B starts selling the same item which is not possible since it is
>>> sitting
>>> guy A's safe.
>>> Who is the liar here? Guy A who paid to have the stone classified or
>>> Guy B
>>> who did not?
>>> So calm down Blood, and look at things rationally.
>>> Michael Farmer
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael L Blood" <mlblood_at_cox.net>
>>> To: "Mike Farmer & Melody" <meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net>; "Meteorite
>>> List"
>>> <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 3:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ET re Another fake name, serious business
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>> I, indeed, do have an opinion:
>>>> It is one thing to lamblast Matteo, who has dealt dirty with
>>>> numerous members of this list or even to sling mud back & forth
>>>> between yourself and Adam - it is quite another to go off on
>>>> a person of E.T.'s dignity, venerable tenure and hard earned
>>>> reputation for honesty!
>>>> Anyone on this list who has dealt with ET will tell you he
>>>> bends over backwards for even the most obnoxious customer
>>>> (I have SEEN him do this, myself), NEVER rips people off and
>>>> has been dealing meteorites as long as anyone (and I mean
>>>> ANYONE) in the business.
>>>> You even ADMIT you have not spoken to him about this,
>>>> so WHAT IN THE HELL are you doing posting it to the list!?
>>>> Get a grip.
>>>> If you somehow lack contact information, contact me and I
>>>> will be happy to supply you with his phone number and email
>>>> address.
>>>> If you can't manage to act like a gentleman, at least pretend
>>>> to have a modicum of decency and good business sense!
>>>> Sincerely, Michael Blood
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> on 11/16/04 1:14 PM, Michael Farmer at meteoritehunter_at_comcast.net
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anyone out there got any opinions on this?
>>>>> Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite.
>>>>> http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm
>>>>> This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given
>>>>> this
>>>>> number:
>>>>> http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever
>>>>> announced.
>>>>> Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar
>>>>> in any
>>>>> way.
>>>>> Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even
>>>>> come
>>>>> close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger
>>>>> chondrules,
>>>>> multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there
>>>>> are
>>>>> clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at
>>>>> top,
>>>>> very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the
>>>>> bottom,
>>>>> smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated.
>>>>> These meteorites are totally different.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this.
>>>>> What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number
>>>>> that
>>>>> my
>>>>> stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you
>>>>> doing
>>>>> this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Edwin Thompson is the one who is using a whole host of my numbers,
>>>>> I have
>>>>> not spoken with him yet, but there is no justification for it other
>>>>> than
>>>>> trying to pawn off unclassified meteorites as names pieces.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market.
>>>>> We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do
>>>>> things
>>>>> right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is
>>>>> claimed
>>>>> to be.
>>>>> But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to
>>>>> keep
>>>>> from having to do their own work.
>>>>> Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material
>>>>> is to
>>>>> buy
>>>>> from the dealer who made the official classification.
>>>>> Michael Farmer
>>>>> Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Received on Wed 17 Nov 2004 08:37:39 PM PST