[meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business

From: Michael Farmer <meteoritehunter_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue Nov 16 20:38:17 2004
Message-ID: <02bf01c4cc46$1ecc0280$0200a8c0_at_S0031628003>

Marcin, you don't seem to understand much about what I am trying to show.
You see, for the last months, I have been to about 9 different countries, so
very little time to cruise the internet.
I didn't know you were selling that meteorite until someone told me today.

Now, you didn't know that was my number? It doesn't matter who's number it
is, what matters is that the number corresponds to a stone that was
submitted for classification. ONLY that stone was thin sectioned and
analyzed, so how could another stone from Morocco be the same? You are being
scammed in Morocco if they start telling you what NWA # it is.
I think I have a pretty good idea of who is doing that since only one guy in
Morocco seems to do that and I have been there 33 times now.

You fail to see the point.
You are selling a stone, claiming it to be NWA 1906, but it is not. You have
no data to back that up, not even any to suggest it is a Rumurutiite. People
who bought it now have no idea what you sold them.
That is the problem Marcin, I am not trying to fight with you or anyone,
but this is a big problem, and you are selling on ebay and on your website
to the public, so what purpose does keeping it private serve?
Not to mention that when accusations are made in public such as the fact
that stones are being sold under false names, then people demand proof,
names etc.
So why beat around the bush as we say here in the USA, let's get to the
point and solve the problem.


Now I see what you mean about Amgala. That is a little different. The
falls, and other extremely identifiable meteorites can not be held to the
same standard. Taza is obviously Taza, Bensour obviously Bensour.
The problem with NWA is that boxes of different stones are being sold in
bulk.
That is what the Nomenclature Committee came up with the numbering scheme.
It is clear that for a meteorite to be classified, a sample must be donated
to the lab and worked on. For the NWA scheme to work, all specimens need to
get analyzed and given a number.
The system breaks down if people just start trying to lump new meteorites
into already named specimens.
We can all get through this, with everyone respecting the rules and if you
want to play this meteorite game, going through the necessary hurdles to get
your material properly classified and documented.
I have to wait MONTHS Marcin, so does everyone else. If you are in a hurry
and need to sell, I suggest you stick with named meteorites. We all have to
take the time needed to do proper work, otherwise the meteorite business
will turn into one large worthless flea-market
Michael Farmer




---- Original Message -----
From: "Meteoryt.net" <marcin_at_meteoryt.net>
To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another fake name, serious business


> Hello list.
> I will try to answer to every questions that Mike is asking here.
>
>
>> Anyone out there got any opinions on this?
>> Here is another example of false name given to unclassified meteorite.
>> http://www.polandmet.com/_nwa1906.htm
>> This is POLANDMET, who has a page selling NWA 1906, a Rumuruti.
>>
>> Now, here is my page, of NWA 1906, the only stone classified and given
> this
>> number:
>> http://www.meteoriteguy.com/nwa1906.htm
>
>
> Yes on photos they looks different. I newer see Your specimens in real,
> but
> also I never know that NWA1906 is "Your" number. But this WHY i named is
> as
> NWA1906 I will explain bottom.
>
>
>>
>> The problem, that is my meteorite, one stone, no pairings ever announced.
>> Take a look at the two pages, the meteorites are not even similar in any
>> way.
>> Mine is NWA 1906, since I had it classified, Polandmet's does not even
> come
>> close to mine. It doesn't look the same, it has much larger chondrules,
>> multicolored, and is just totally different. Not to mention that there
>> are
>> clearly two different meteorites on that same page. Note the slices at
> top,
>> very nice clear multicolored chondrules, then the slices are the bottom,
>> smaller chondrules, more weathered, clearly brecciated.
>> These meteorites are totally different.
>
> Yes, specimen on top I buy first, second specimen was purchased later,
> but.... both stones are THE SAME METEORITE.
> I not delete photos from sold slices from first specimen to SHOW that
> every
> slice, begin from endpiece have less " normall orange" matrix and more
> perfect chondrules matrix, and finally last slices have only perfect
> chondrules and no "orange" matrix. This is any kind of chondrite-rich
> inclusion, just a special specimen. I hope photos explain everything.
>
>
>> I am publicly demanding from Polandmet to answer this.
>
> I publicly answering , but I not understand why You doing this publicly.
> If
> I make a "crime" against "Your" numbers we should resolve this off-line,
> becouse this is case beetween us. From my side results of my answer will
> be
> the same as when this will be readed by 600 persons or only by you.
>
>> What makes you think that you can sell a meteorite under the number that
> my
>> stone received? What makes you think they are paired? Why are you doing
>> this?
>
> I purchased this specimen in Morocco. I was there for the first time last
> april.
> I buy it from a well know Maroccan dealer AS NWA1906. Later in June I saw
> in
> Ensisheim other persons selling THE SAME material as NWA1906 R4 and
> NWA2289
> R3-6. Comparing photos is not the same as comparing material in real,
> slice
> to slice under loupe. So I was sure that I have NWA1906 and NWA2289. So I
> start selling this without any BAD intention to anyone. Just another
> meteorite, as other that I buy in Morocco.
>
> Im only astonished Mike, why u asking me about NWA1906 right now ? I not
> sell on ebay this meteorite for more than month, where You should see it
> as
> possible wrong named material ? Why u not sended this email in september
> when I selling few slices per week, and announced it on this list many
> times
> ? Why this happend right now ?
>
>
>> This has the potential to collapse the entire meteorite market.
>> We are only as good as our name, and I have worked very hard to do things
>> right. I would NEVER sell someone a meteorite that is not what it is
> claimed
>> to be.
>> But this is what these dealers are doing, making visual pairings to keep
>> from having to do their own work.
>> Buyer beware, it seems that the only way to get official material is to
> buy
>> from the dealer who made the official classification.
>> Michael Farmer
>> Awaiting a response from Polandmet and Edwin Thompson.
>
> Last word
>
> Now we have a little different view for some things. I talking about all
> this emails from Hupes Team about NWA1877 / NWA1110 not autorised sale.
> But
> half year ago I must say that I not thinking much about this if my
> Rumuruti
> is NWA1906 or not. I was sure that I sell right meteorite, the same as IM
> SURE that I sell now Amgala as Amgala, NWA869 as NWA869, Gao-Guenie as
> Gao-Guenie or Kilabo as Kilabo.
> Becouse e.g. someone is "owner" of Gao-Guenie name so I should classify my
> next shipment from Burkina Faso as Gao-Guenie (f) or Ouagadougou H5,
> becouse
> I buy it from this city, not from Gao village. The same is with many other
> meteorites. So why here NWA1906 can be exception ?
>
> Who is "owner" of Amgala name ? Tell me please if I have right to use this
> name for my specimens purchased in Morocco ? Ask Dean Bessey if his lot of
> Amgalas comes from right source or maybe he just buy them on desert and
> his
> WISH is that he have Amgala? All dealers who just buying for example
> Ben-Sours or Taza in Morocco. Why they are "sure" that they have the
> original material ? I think that my pairing, using my own eyes is not
> exception. Many dealers, include You Mike, classify meteorites "on the
> fly"
> using loupes or You just TRUST Your marocan friend. I just trusted person
> I
> meet in Morocco. Now I see that I should be more carefull. But importand
> is
> that my meteorites I buy in Morocco not on marketplace, but from well know
> Marocan delaer, from who buy meteorites also other big USA dealers. So how
> I
> should not trust him? With this "big NWA river" that comes from Morroco
> there must be mistakes and errors.
>
> Another problem is that for sure I dont have place for classifications.
> When
> I asking This List noone help me with good results. So also if I want to
> classify in April my new Rumuruti I dont have place to do this. Not so
> long
> time ago I find by myself web page of NAU Laboratory where is offer of
> clasification new meteorites. So my next purchases of unknown material
> from
> Morocco for sure I send to classification. Ofcourse if NAU find time to
> take
> my meteorites for classification. But this is ofcourse just my problem
> now.
>
> At last:
> Comparing now Your photos with all specimens of NWA1906 I saw on fairs or
> internet and with all my specimens I must say that THIS IS NOT THE SAME
> MATERIAL. I make mistake. But I not do this with Bad intention. I not
> named
> my material as NWA1906 becouse this number was first I saw or becouse I
> wanted make anything against You Mike. I can say only "Im sorry Mike".
>
> I will right now stop selling this meteorite as NWA1906, and anyone who
> buy
> this meteorite from me and are unhappy, can return specimens with full
> refund.
>
> PS, Material that was sell by me as NWA1906 was also classified as NWA2289
> R3-6.
> For compare NWA2289 R3-6 http://www.meteoriten.com/special.html
> For me its the same meteorite and now this cant be another mistake, but
> ofcourse I will not rename my rumuruti to another "good" number.
>
>
>
> -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-----[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]-----
> http://www.Meteoryt.net marcin_at_meteoryt.net
> http://www.PolandMET.com marcin_at_polandmet.com
> http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535 195
> --------[ Member of: Polish Meteoritical Society ]--------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Tue 16 Nov 2004 08:38:06 PM PST