[meteorite-list] Re: Dealer Refunds - Conclusion

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From: Tim Heitz <midwestmeteor_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:22:45 2004
Message-ID: <001801c33eb2$52c83860$0201a8c0_at_TIM2>

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-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
MeteorHntr_at_aol.com
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:02 PM
To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] Re: Dealer Refunds - Conclusion

Hello List,

I suppose it is time to put an end to this thread.

Let me do it by offering a little bit of a deeper explanation as to what
happened. Before I started the thread, I reluctantly agreed to give my
customer his refund, but I warned him that if he accepted a refund from
me, under what I told him I thought was unreasonable circumstances, that
I would no longer do any business with him in the future.

Not that I like to cut off any customer's money or any upward pressure
in future ebay biddings they might give, I felt that I did not want to
do business with someone that I felt would change the rules in the
middle of transactions in the future. However, I was completely
comfortable in making the refund if he was comfortable in not being able
to buy from me in the future. (I feel that many times I offer very good
deals, even below current market values at times, and that missing out
on them in the future, was punishment enough for him recouping a couple
of dollars with this current deal.)

After informing him of that (but before he could reply to me if he
indeed wanted to take the money back in exchange for the specimen) I
made the first post to the list. I did so after thinking about the
situation and actually second guessing whether I had a right to think
his request was unreasonable in the first place.

Well, it seems that the response was about 25 people agreeing with me
and 0 agreeing with my customer. Fortunately for me, my customer is a
member of the list and he was able to read these posts. Not that my
intention was to change his mind, or to embarrass him, I really wanted
to keep the discussion of the facts on the list to the moral dilemma.
However, the customer wrote me stating that he realized he was wrong (or
at least I think that is what he said, I sometimes have a hard time
understanding his broken English). [oops, did that give him away?]

I have communicated with my customer, and we have reached an agreement
in the ordeal where he is making his acquisition upon our previously
agreed to circumstances.

While I was content to give the refund, I am happy that the deal is
going through as originally agreed upon.

While this topic involved a Park Forest specimen, and partially was
brought about by a fluctuation in perceived retail prices of Park Forest
specimens, that really didn't have a bearing on the moral question
involved.

However I do want to toss in my opinion on the values and prices of Park
Forest specimens. As Jim Strope (I think) mentioned, I too really think
there is just a temporary dip in the prices on the Park Forest
specimens. There are some events and dynamics at work that I sincerely
believe will cause a spike in demand and thus a spike in the values of
Park Forest Specimens the next couple of months, especially with the
small individuals that I have found. There are quite a few different
factors that may or may not effect the values in the near future, and we
will have to see how it all plays out.

But I do not agree with the opinion (stated as fact by some) that the
values of Park Forest are continuing to drop. I agree that much of the
established meteorite market have had their needs filled by now, and
fewer of them are competing for remaining specimens for sale, but there
is really very little left to be sold. I know quite a few dealers that
have been sold out for some time.

Yes, there are two big stones whose final destination is not yet
determined. If these end up in institutions, or remain with their
finders for a long time or in private hands and not end up being cut and
distributed, there will be BIG shortage in a few months time. If they
end up being cut and brought to the retail market, it will have an
effect on the values of slices and to a lesser degree small whole
stones. More small stones might be able to be found, but I have struck
out the last 12 days in the strewnfield, so I am pessimistic too many
more will be found. Besides, anyone who goes up there to hunt and finds
one or two is not likely to want to sell them. Those will probably be
held onto forever.

Anything, from unusual research findings, to more nationwide or
worldwide publicity, to new collectors joining the hobby (as they
occasionally do) even over the short run will put extra demand on these
unspoken for specimen that I don't think there is supply enough to fill
at current prices. This gives me optimism that the prices could and
probably will go up.

Let's revisit this issue in 6 months or so from now and see what
happens.

Steve Arnold

******************************
Subj: Dealer Refunds
Date: 6/27/2003 9:59:40 PM Central Daylight Time
From: MeteorHntr
To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com

Hello List,

I have an ethical question I would like to get some feedback on.

I just got a request from a customer that I give him a refund for a
specimen he purchased a month or so ago from me that he wants to return
now. His request was not based on the fact that the specimen was
damaged or otherwise in a different condition than described when it was
sold to him.

The request he felt was justified because he thinks the specimen is now
not worth as much as he paid for it bach then. He seems to think he can
get the same thing for a lower price elsewhere. So I assume he wants
the refund to go buy the other cheaper specimen to replace the one he
wants to give back to me.

While I do guarantee authenticity and that the specimens are as
described on all my specimens I sell, I do not have a Walmart style
lowest price guarantee, that the person cannot find a similar specimen
somewhere else in the present or in the future for a lower price. If
someone bought something and didn't like it for whatever reason and
wanted to return it promptly for a refund, that would be one thing but
this is another.

I find this refund request unreasonable and bordering on unethical. A
similar but opposite request would be if I would contact buyers a month
after I sold them a specimen and demanded that they let me buy back a
specimen I sold them a month earlier because new information tells me
that I sold it to them too cheap and that if I had it back at the price
I sold it, I could turn around and sell it to someone for an even higher
price. That request would be absurd.

As I recall, there is just one dealer that offers a written lifetime
guarantee to buy back any specimens at the customers purchase prices.
However, one would expect that having a stated guarantee such as that
would help such a dealer to generate more than enough extra sales to
cover the losses when a meteorite genuinely drops in value and a few
people decide to take that dealer up on his offer. But without offering
that incentive to make all the extra sales along the way, a dealer could
go bankrupt giving refunds on demand for price fluctuation reasons.

I guess my question is, how would some of the other dealers respond to
such a request? Has anyone had such a request nade if them? And for
collectors out there, do you feel making such a request (and expecting
it to be fulfilled) is reasonable? Would a direct purchase be different
from an ebay purchase?

Steve Arnold

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-----Original =
Message----- 
From: =
meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-admin_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MeteorHntr_at_aol.com 
Sent: Sunday, June 29, =
2003 1:02
PM 
To:
meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com 
Subject: [meteorite-list] =
Re:
Dealer Refunds - Conclusion

<o:p> </o:p>

Hello List, 
 
I suppose it is time to put an end to this thread. 
 
Let me do it by offering a little bit of a deeper explanation as to what
happened.  Before I started the thread, I reluctantly agreed to =
give my
customer his refund, but I warned him that if he accepted a refund from =
me,
under what I told him I thought was unreasonable circumstances, that I =
would no
longer do any business with him in the future.  
 
Not that I like to cut off any customer's money or any upward pressure =
in
future ebay biddings they might give, I felt that I did not want to do =
business
with someone that I felt would change the rules in the middle of =
transactions
in the future.  However, I was completely comfortable in making the =
refund
if he was comfortable in not being able to buy from me in the =
future.  (I
feel that many times I offer very good deals, even below current market =
values
at times, and that missing out on them in the future, was punishment =
enough for
him recouping a couple of dollars with this current deal.) 
 
After informing him of that (but before he could reply to me if he =
indeed
wanted to take the money back in exchange for the specimen) I made the =
first
post to the list.  I did so after thinking about the situation and
actually second guessing whether I had a right to think his request was
unreasonable in the first place. 
 
Well, it seems that the response was about 25 people agreeing with me =
and 0
agreeing with my customer.  Fortunately for me, my customer is a =
member of
the list and he was able to read these posts.  Not that my =
intention was
to change his mind, or to embarrass him, I really wanted to keep the =
discussion
of the facts on the list to the moral dilemma.  However, the =
customer
wrote me stating that he realized he was wrong (or at least I think that =
is what
he said, I sometimes have a hard time understanding his broken English). =
[oops,
did that give him away?] 
 
I have communicated with my customer, and we have reached an agreement =
in the
ordeal where he is making his acquisition upon our previously agreed to
circumstances.  
 
While I was content to give the refund, I am happy that the deal is =
going
through as originally agreed upon.  
 
While this topic involved a Park Forest specimen, and partially was =
brought
about by a fluctuation in perceived retail prices of Park Forest =
specimens,
that really didn't have a bearing on the moral question involved.  =
 
 
However I do want to toss in my opinion on the values and prices of Park =
Forest
specimens.  As Jim Strope (I think) mentioned, I too really think =
there is
just a temporary dip in the prices on the Park Forest specimens.  =
There
are some events and dynamics at work that I sincerely believe will cause =
a
spike in demand and thus a spike in the values of Park Forest Specimens =
the
next couple of months, especially with the small individuals that I have
found.  There are quite a few different factors that may or may not =
effect
the values in the near future, and we will have to see how it all plays
out.  
 
But I do not agree with the opinion (stated as fact by some) that the =
values of
Park Forest are continuing to drop.  I agree that much of the =
established
meteorite market have had their needs filled by now, and fewer of them =
are
competing for remaining specimens for sale, but there is really very =
little
left to be sold.  I know quite a few dealers that have been sold =
out for
some time.  
 
Yes, there are two big stones whose final destination is not yet
determined.  If these end up in institutions, or remain with their =
finders
for a long time or in private hands and not end up being cut and =
distributed,
there will be BIG shortage in a few months time. If they end up being =
cut and
brought to the retail market, it will have an effect on the values of =
slices
and to a lesser degree small whole stones.  More small stones might =
be
able to be found, but I have struck out the last 12 days in the =
strewnfield, so
I am pessimistic too many more will be found.  Besides, anyone who =
goes up
there to hunt and finds one or two is not likely to want to sell =
them. 
Those will probably be held onto forever.  
 
Anything, from unusual research findings, to more nationwide or =
worldwide
publicity, to new collectors joining the hobby (as they occasionally do) =
even
over the short run will put extra demand on these unspoken for specimen =
that I
don't think there is supply enough to fill at current prices.  This =
gives
me optimism that the prices could and probably will go up.  
 
Let's revisit this issue in 6 months or so from now and see what =
happens. 
 
Steve Arnold 
 
 
****************************** 
Subj: Dealer Refunds 
Date: 6/27/2003 9:59:40 PM Central Daylight Time 
From: <a href=3D"mailto:MeteorHntr">MeteorHntr</a> 
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@meteor=
itecentral.com</a>
 
 
 
 
Hello List, 
 
I have an ethical question I would like to get some feedback on. 
 
I just got a request from a customer that I give him a refund for a =
specimen he
purchased a month or so ago from me that he wants to return now.  =
His
request was not based on the fact that the specimen was damaged or =
otherwise in
a different condition than described when it was sold to him. 
 
The request he felt was justified because he thinks the specimen is now =
not
worth as much as he paid for it bach then.  He seems to think he =
can get
the same thing for a lower price elsewhere.  So I assume he wants =
the
refund to go buy the other cheaper specimen to replace the one he wants =
to give
back to me. 
 
While I do guarantee authenticity and that the specimens are as =
described on
all my specimens I sell, I do not have a Walmart style lowest price =
guarantee,
that the person cannot find a similar specimen somewhere else in the =
present or
in the future for a lower price.  If someone bought something and =
didn't
like it for whatever reason and wanted to return it promptly for a =
refund, that
would be one thing but this is another. 
 
I find this refund request unreasonable and bordering on =
unethical.  A
similar but opposite request would be if I would contact buyers a month =
after I
sold them a specimen and demanded that they let me buy back a specimen I =
sold
them a month earlier because new information tells me that I sold it to =
them
too cheap and that if I had it back at the price I sold it, I could turn =
around
and sell it to someone for an even higher price.  That request =
would be
absurd. 
 
As I recall, there is just one dealer that offers a written lifetime =
guarantee
to buy back any specimens at the customers purchase prices.  =
However, one
would expect that having a stated guarantee such as that would help such =
a
dealer to generate more than enough extra sales to cover the losses when =
a
meteorite genuinely drops in value and a few people decide to take that =
dealer
up on his offer.  But without offering that incentive to make all =
the
extra sales along the way, a dealer could go bankrupt giving refunds on =
demand
for price fluctuation reasons. 
 
I guess my question is, how would some of the other dealers respond to =
such a
request?  Has anyone had such a request nade if them?  And for
collectors out there, do you feel making such a request (and expecting =
it to be
fulfilled) is reasonable?  Would a direct purchase be different =
from an
ebay purchase? 
 
Steve Arnold<o:p></o:p>

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