[meteorite-list] Re: Dealer Refunds - Conclusion
From: MeteorHntr_at_aol.com <MeteorHntr_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:22:44 2004 Message-ID: <109.25450913.2c309fc7_at_aol.com> --part1_109.25450913.2c309fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List, I suppose it is time to put an end to this thread. Let me do it by offering a little bit of a deeper explanation as to what happened. Before I started the thread, I reluctantly agreed to give my customer his refund, but I warned him that if he accepted a refund from me, under what I told him I thought was unreasonable circumstances, that I would no longer do any business with him in the future. Not that I like to cut off any customer's money or any upward pressure in future ebay biddings they might give, I felt that I did not want to do business with someone that I felt would change the rules in the middle of transactions in the future. However, I was completely comfortable in making the refund if he was comfortable in not being able to buy from me in the future. (I feel that many times I offer very good deals, even below current market values at times, and that missing out on them in the future, was punishment enough for him recouping a couple of dollars with this current deal.) After informing him of that (but before he could reply to me if he indeed wanted to take the money back in exchange for the specimen) I made the first post to the list. I did so after thinking about the situation and actually second guessing whether I had a right to think his request was unreasonable in the first place. Well, it seems that the response was about 25 people agreeing with me and 0 agreeing with my customer. Fortunately for me, my customer is a member of the list and he was able to read these posts. Not that my intention was to change his mind, or to embarrass him, I really wanted to keep the discussion of the facts on the list to the moral dilemma. However, the customer wrote me stating that he realized he was wrong (or at least I think that is what he said, I sometimes have a hard time understanding his broken English). [oops, did that give him away?] I have communicated with my customer, and we have reached an agreement in the ordeal where he is making his acquisition upon our previously agreed to circumstances. While I was content to give the refund, I am happy that the deal is going through as originally agreed upon. While this topic involved a Park Forest specimen, and partially was brought about by a fluctuation in perceived retail prices of Park Forest specimens, that really didn't have a bearing on the moral question involved. However I do want to toss in my opinion on the values and prices of Park Forest specimens. As Jim Strope (I think) mentioned, I too really think there is just a temporary dip in the prices on the Park Forest specimens. There are some events and dynamics at work that I sincerely believe will cause a spike in demand and thus a spike in the values of Park Forest Specimens the next couple of months, especially with the small individuals that I have found. There are quite a few different factors that may or may not effect the values in the near future, and we will have to see how it all plays out. But I do not agree with the opinion (stated as fact by some) that the values of Park Forest are continuing to drop. I agree that much of the established meteorite market have had their needs filled by now, and fewer of them are competing for remaining specimens for sale, but there is really very little left to be sold. I know quite a few dealers that have been sold out for some time. Yes, there are two big stones whose final destination is not yet determined. If these end up in institutions, or remain with their finders for a long time or in private hands and not end up being cut and distributed, there will be BIG shortage in a few months time. If they end up being cut and brought to the retail market, it will have an effect on the values of slices and to a lesser degree small whole stones. More small stones might be able to be found, but I have struck out the last 12 days in the strewnfield, so I am pessimistic too many more will be found. Besides, anyone who goes up there to hunt and finds one or two is not likely to want to sell them. Those will probably be held onto forever. Anything, from unusual research findings, to more nationwide or worldwide publicity, to new collectors joining the hobby (as they occasionally do) even over the short run will put extra demand on these unspoken for specimen that I don't think there is supply enough to fill at current prices. This gives me optimism that the prices could and probably will go up. Let's revisit this issue in 6 months or so from now and see what happens. Steve Arnold ****************************** Subj: Dealer Refunds Date: 6/27/2003 9:59:40 PM Central Daylight Time From: <A HREF="mailto:MeteorHntr">MeteorHntr</A> To: <A HREF="mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com</A> Hello List, I have an ethical question I would like to get some feedback on. I just got a request from a customer that I give him a refund for a specimen he purchased a month or so ago from me that he wants to return now. His request was not based on the fact that the specimen was damaged or otherwise in a different condition than described when it was sold to him. The request he felt was justified because he thinks the specimen is now not worth as much as he paid for it bach then. He seems to think he can get the same thing for a lower price elsewhere. So I assume he wants the refund to go buy the other cheaper specimen to replace the one he wants to give back to me. While I do guarantee authenticity and that the specimens are as described on all my specimens I sell, I do not have a Walmart style lowest price guarantee, that the person cannot find a similar specimen somewhere else in the present or in the future for a lower price. If someone bought something and didn't like it for whatever reason and wanted to return it promptly for a refund, that would be one thing but this is another. I find this refund request unreasonable and bordering on unethical. A similar but opposite request would be if I would contact buyers a month after I sold them a specimen and demanded that they let me buy back a specimen I sold them a month earlier because new information tells me that I sold it to them too cheap and that if I had it back at the price I sold it, I could turn around and sell it to someone for an even higher price. That request would be absurd. As I recall, there is just one dealer that offers a written lifetime guarantee to buy back any specimens at the customers purchase prices. However, one would expect that having a stated guarantee such as that would help such a dealer to generate more than enough extra sales to cover the losses when a meteorite genuinely drops in value and a few people decide to take that dealer up on his offer. But without offering that incentive to make all the extra sales along the way, a dealer could go bankrupt giving refunds on demand for price fluctuation reasons. I guess my question is, how would some of the other dealers respond to such a request? Has anyone had such a request nade if them? And for collectors out there, do you feel making such a request (and expecting it to be fulfilled) is reasonable? Would a direct purchase be different from an ebay purchase? Steve Arnold --part1_109.25450913.2c309fc7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE= =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Hello List,<BR> <BR> I suppose it is time to put an end to this thread.<BR> <BR> Let me do it by offering a little bit of a deeper explanation as to what hap= pened. Before I started the thread, I reluctantly agreed to give my cu= stomer his refund, but I warned him that if he accepted a refund from me, un= der what I told him I thought was unreasonable circumstances, that I would n= o longer do any business with him in the future. <BR> <BR> Not that I like to cut off any customer's money or any upward pressure in fu= ture ebay biddings they might give, I felt that I did not want to do busines= s with someone that I felt would change the rules in the middle of transacti= ons in the future. However, I was completely comfortable in making the= refund if he was comfortable in not being able to buy from me in the future= . (I feel that many times I offer very good deals, even below current=20= market values at times, and that missing out on them in the future, was puni= shment enough for him recouping a couple of dollars with this current deal.)= <BR> <BR> After informing him of that (but before he could reply to me if he indeed wa= nted to take the money back in exchange for the specimen) I made the first p= ost to the list. I did so after thinking about the situation and actua= lly second guessing whether I had a right to think his request was unreasona= ble in the first place.<BR> <BR> Well, it seems that the response was about 25 people agreeing with me and 0=20= agreeing with my customer. Fortunately for me, my customer is a member= of the list and he was able to read these posts. Not that my intentio= n was to change his mind, or to embarrass him, I really wanted to keep the d= iscussion of the facts on the list to the moral dilemma. However, the=20= customer wrote me stating that he realized he was wrong (or at least I think= that is what he said, I sometimes have a hard time understanding his broken= English). [oops, did that give him away?]<BR> <BR> I have communicated with my customer, and we have reached an agreement in th= e ordeal where he is making his acquisition upon our previously agreed to ci= rcumstances. <BR> <BR> While I was content to give the refund, I am happy that the deal is going th= rough as originally agreed upon. <BR> <BR> While this topic involved a Park Forest specimen, and partially was brought=20= about by a fluctuation in perceived retail prices of Park Forest specimens,=20= that really didn't have a bearing on the moral question involved. <BR> <BR> However I do want to toss in my opinion on the values and prices of Park For= est specimens. As Jim Strope (I think) mentioned, I too really think t= here is just a temporary dip in the prices on the Park Forest specimens.&nbs= p; There are some events and dynamics at work that I sincerely believe will=20= cause a spike in demand and thus a spike in the values of Park Forest Specim= ens the next couple of months, especially with the small individuals that I=20= have found. There are quite a few different factors that may or may no= t effect the values in the near future, and we will have to see how it all p= lays out. <BR> <BR> But I do not agree with the opinion (stated as fact by some) that the values= of Park Forest are continuing to drop. I agree that much of the estab= lished meteorite market have had their needs filled by now, and fewer of the= m are competing for remaining specimens for sale, but there is really very l= ittle left to be sold. I know quite a few dealers that have been sold=20= out for some time. <BR> <BR> Yes, there are two big stones whose final destination is not yet determined.= If these end up in institutions, or remain with their finders for a l= ong time or in private hands and not end up being cut and distributed, there= will be BIG shortage in a few months time. If they end up being cut and bro= ught to the retail market, it will have an effect on the values of slices an= d to a lesser degree small whole stones. More small stones might be ab= le to be found, but I have struck out the last 12 days in the strewnfield, s= o I am pessimistic too many more will be found. Besides, anyone who go= es up there to hunt and finds one or two is not likely to want to sell them.= Those will probably be held onto forever. <BR> <BR> Anything, from unusual research findings, to more nationwide or worldwide pu= blicity, to new collectors joining the hobby (as they occasionally do) even=20= over the short run will put extra demand on these unspoken for specimen that= I don't think there is supply enough to fill at current prices. This=20= gives me optimism that the prices could and probably will go up. <BR> <BR> Let's revisit this issue in 6 months or so from now and see what happens.<BR= > <BR> Steve Arnold<BR> <BR> <BR> ******************************<BR> Subj: <B>Dealer Refunds </B> <BR> Date: 6/27/2003 9:59:40 PM Central Daylight Time <BR> From: <A HREF=3D"mailto:MeteorHntr">MeteorHntr</A> <BR> To: <A HREF=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@me= teoritecentral.com</A> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> Hello List,<BR> <BR> I have an ethical question I would like to get some feedback on.<BR> <BR> I just got a request from a customer that I give him a refund for a specimen= he purchased a month or so ago from me that he wants to return now. H= is request was not based on the fact that the specimen was damaged or otherw= ise in a different condition than described when it was sold to him.<BR> <BR> The request he felt was justified because he thinks the specimen is now not=20= worth as much as he paid for it bach then. He seems to think he can ge= t the same thing for a lower price elsewhere. So I assume he wants the= refund to go buy the other cheaper specimen to replace the one he wants to=20= give back to me.<BR> <BR> While I do guarantee authenticity and that the specimens are as described on= all my specimens I sell, I do not have a Walmart style lowest price guarant= ee, that the person cannot find a similar specimen somewhere else in the pre= sent or in the future for a lower price. If someone bought something a= nd didn't like it for whatever reason and wanted to return it promptly for a= refund, that would be one thing but this is another.<BR> <BR> I find this refund request unreasonable and bordering on unethical. A=20= similar but opposite request would be if I would contact buyers a month afte= r I sold them a specimen and demanded that they let me buy back a specimen I= sold them a month earlier because new information tells me that I sold it t= o them too cheap and that if I had it back at the price I sold it, I could t= urn around and sell it to someone for an even higher price. That reque= st would be absurd.<BR> <BR> As I recall, there is just one dealer that offers a written lifetime guarant= ee to buy back any specimens at the customers purchase prices. However= , one would expect that having a stated guarantee such as that would help su= ch a dealer to generate more than enough extra sales to cover the losses whe= n a meteorite genuinely drops in value and a few people decide to take that=20= dealer up on his offer. But without offering that incentive to make al= l the extra sales along the way, a dealer could go bankrupt giving refunds o= n demand for price fluctuation reasons.<BR> <BR> I guess my question is, how would some of the other dealers respond to such=20= a request? Has anyone had such a request nade if them? And for c= ollectors out there, do you feel making such a request (and expecting it to=20= be fulfilled) is reasonable? Would a direct purchase be different from= an ebay purchase?<BR> <BR> Steve Arnold<BR> <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_109.25450913.2c309fc7_boundary-- Received on Sun 29 Jun 2003 04:02:15 PM PDT |
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