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Re: Fw: Meteorite "worth"



>
>
>>.....the "price of gold", its "worth" if you will is not so much
>>defined by "demand" but by how much it costs to extract-
>
>Everything's worth is determined by supply and demand.  The cost of
>production/extraction is simply a key component of "supply".
>

WRONG !  With gold, platinum, or  silver, the cost of production is
what the intrinsic value of that commodity is.  A meteorite falling in
one's yard involves no work, thought going out and actually looking
for one would involve some work.  And it is that latter attribute that
establishes a meteorite's "worth" to me.


><<Meteorites, on the other hand are valued differently.  Mostly by rarity,
>>and demand.>>
>
>Well, "rarity and demand" is pretty much indistinguishable from "supply and
>demand".  Rarity just means the supply is limited.
>

Right, and precious metals are precious because they are so difficult
to extract.  The "labor" to get them is so high.

><<>And "worth" with regards to them is purely subjective-- there is no
>>intrinsic value to a meteorite, no matter how rare it is.>>
>
>Actually, I think economic "worth" is completely objective.  Sentimental
>or personal "worth" can be subjective.  There is no intrinsic value
>to a beanie baby either, but try to tell a collector that they are "worth"
>the 20-cents-worth-of-cloth they contain.  To YOU (and to ME, I might add!)
>a beanie baby IS only worth the cloth it's made of, but OUR opinion doesn't 
>really count as far as the prevailing prices are concerned, does it?  It's 
>the people
>who actually buy-and-sell who determine worth, not the folks who stand
>alongside and offer their subjective opinions.  
>

You just proved my point by using "beanie baby".  They are not worth more
than the cloth they are made of you say.  Well, then what are meteorites
makde of?  Iron on the scrap makrket goes for what?  50 cents a pound?

And stone meteorites-- what are they made of that makes them so 
*intrisically* valuable.  There is nothing in any of the meteorites that
in and of itself makes them *intrinsically* more valueable than the substance
of which they are made.

In other words, meteorites are no more valuable intrinsically than the
substances that they ar made of any more than beanie babies are more
valuable than the cloth that they are made of.

Not so with gold or any of the precious metals.  Their cost is based
no only on rarity, but be base value established by the labor to produce
the refined forms.

Keep in mind that most people look at meteorites, and what collectors
pay for them with the same bewilderment that we have when we see people
in a frenzy paying high prices for beanie babies.

I can tell you this.

Put a piece of gold next to a piece of Zagami and leave them on a sidwalk.

Which one do you think will stay there untouched?

The value of gold is widely recognized, the value of Zagami is not.

The value of one is objective, the other is not.

People know that gold means money, and for most "good as gold" means
money.

Not so with meteorites.

Gold has intrinsic value-- objective value that almost everyone recognizes.

Sorry-- meteorites do not.

><< One thing I can say... If I do not think a meteorite is *worth* what
> >the other dealers are asking, I will lean on my subjective judgement,
> >and not buy it--- even if everyone else is in the "feeding frenzy" mode.
>
>And if the majority of other buyers out there don't buy at the specific 
>"asking" price, 
>then the meteorite isn't "worth" that price.   But if you are in the 
>minority, and
>there are plenty of buyers who WILL pay it, then, sorry, but that's the 
>meteorite's
>price.  You may not LIKE it, you may fervently believe that it's overpriced, 
>but
>if people pay it, if it's the "going rate", then that's what it's worth.
>

To them, but not to me.  Sorry to tell you this, but I have been buying,
selling, and trading meteorites for over 20 years.  I have had all types
of meteorites pass through my hands.  And just because I refuse to pay
the "going rate" for one does not mean that I will not have it. 

I trade meteorites that I find, and often I get what others pay very high
prices for.

In such cases, the *worth* of that meteorite is measured by me in terms
other than cash.

> 
> >If everyone just sat back for a while everytime a new meteorite crops up,
> >then perhaps the true *worth* of that meteorite will be better established. 
>>>
>
>If a majority of buyers did not buy a new meteorite, the price would plummet.
>When/if more of them started to buy it, the price would begin to rise.
>If the meteorite became suddenly famous, or if demand became
>extremely high, the price would skyrocket.  And at any given moment along the 
>way,
>the average, prevailing price would be what the meteorite is worth at that 
>moment.

Just like beanie babies?  And like beanie babies-- meteorites have no more
intrinsic value than the mundane materials that they are made of.
 
>
>When Nininger was "doing his thing", meteorites could be had for a dollar or
>two a pound.   If you were to chart the "worth" of Canyon Diablo from 1900 to 
>2000, most every year on your chart, the price would go up.  Can you really 
>decide that some arbitrary moment on that chart represents the exact value of 
>CD? 


And the purchasing value of the almighty US dollar has declined several
hundred percent since 1900, too.  And very much so since FDR decoupled
the US dolar from the gold standard in 1934.  Take away the *intrinsic*
value of gold and what do you have backing the dollar?  An IOU from the
government, and the paper it is written on.

  
>'You mention above the "true worth" of a meteorite.  Could you please tell me 
>the "true worth" of Canyon Diablo? 

The true worth *intrinsic value* is the market rate of the iron, nickel, 
and trace elements that it is made of-- about 50 cents per pound to a
scrap iron dealer.

And oddly, mining iron for smelting was the basis of the mining claim
that the Barringers had for Meteor Crater.  Minable iron-- nothing more,
nothing less.


 What about 50 years ago? 40? 30?  10?  
>There is really only ONE "true worth" for Canyon Diablo, the entire 20th 
>century?  

Intrinsic value of Canyon Diablo irons is the scrap price.  BUT subjective
value based upon its cosmic nature is what is driving the price, not anything
about the fluctuations in the intrinsic value of the iron itself.

>
>Nobody like paying higher and higher prices for ANYTHING, meteorites, gas,
>food, insurance, baseball tickets.  But if people are willing to pay higher 
>and higher
>prices, sellers are going to charge them.  It's only if people STOP paying 
>them, that the prices will drop.  Steve, while I admire your strong stance 
>about meteorite prices, if enough people out there are willing to pay 
>exorbitant prices, then THEY are determining the "worth" of meteorites, not 
>YOU.  Frustrating, maybe, but true.
>Gregory
>

I do determine the price of meteorites-- That is I decide what I will, or
will not buy.  If you want to pay two, three or as many times the price
that I am willing to pay that is your problem.  But I can tell you this,
it is this dynamic that will drive the prices of these interesting objects
up to a point where you, and a lot of other enthusiasts will not longer
be able to afford them.

Meteorites, and meteorite collecting will then be a rich man's hobby--


And that I say will be a real tragedy.

Steve Schoner
AMS

>
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