[meteorite-list] R: help me in understand analysis

From: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:54:43 -0700
Message-ID: <63503aa2-7462-f71a-f68b-ad7affdf5604_at_centurylink.net>

I am not interested in starting another pairing wars argument. The
archive is full of these discussions. In the past, I pointing out those
who were self-pairing, piggy-backing and stealing nomenclature from
official classifications I was involved with. Many dealers thought they
were entitled to piggyback my hard work and I let them know that what
they were doing is nothing short of fraud. Piggybacking also has a
negative effect on collectors who do not want undocumented stones
competing with officially classified specimens in their collections.
This widespread and unsavory practice hurts honest dealers and
collectors alike.

Simply posting a bulletin entry is not enough. The name of the person
who submitted the specimens must match or a chain of custody to that
name must be clearly spelled out for provenance purposes. The number of
stones listed in the bulletin cannot be exceeded and weights all need to
be in alignment.

In my case, yes, I posted links to the bulletin where my name was
mentioned so the chain of custody was unbroken and well-established.
This is not the case for most planetary listings on eBay.

Lazy and dishonest Dealers who take shortcuts and bypass protocol are
driving honest people away.

Who would want to pass down or inherit an undocumented stone thinking it
is planetary to find out later, it is a terrestrial breccia? Our
actions now will be remembered well into the future. What kind of
legacy do you want to leave behind?

Life only happens once and there is no time for rehearsal so you better
do things the best you can the first time.

Adam


On 10/10/2017 4:00 AM, Graham Ensor via Meteorite-list wrote:
> You say...."It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is
> legitimate, not collectors/buyers after the transaction.? Why should a
> buyer have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to
> the person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to
> provide this information up front.? Who in their right mind would pay
> top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the market
> as planetary pieces?"
>
> The answer to that is that you would Adam....that is exactly how you
> first bought in numerous rare pieces from NWA and then got them
> classified and published. You then sell them with a link to the Bulletin
> and thus the science....no more chain of provenance than that. Just your
> own and lab certification.
>
> This is exactly what I see happening at the moment with many other
> dealers and even just collectors now...they are all doing the same as
> you did and proudly bringing new material to science and the collectors
> market. I see nothing wrong with that and I do not see all this so
> called fraudulent material on the market. If you are seeing this
> meteorwrong or terrestrial breccia material being sold by the dealers we
> would be very glad if you could share links with us to that material or
> self paired so we are aware of it and can decide ourselves. (Please let
> us know how you know it is terrestrial breccia). I would certainly
> telling people. I called one leading dealer out recently because they
> were saying the red coating on some recent lunar was fusion crust and
> thus rare when it is actually desert soil when examined at the lab and
> easily cleaned off. There are always a few amateurs and fraudsters, not
> well known dealers...trying on...but you seem to be saying more than that.
>
> I admit people have to be careful when buying and need to see that the
> material has been analysed at the lab if being sold as a classified
> type. Those buying unclassified material have to take the risks like you
> and I have always done and then it stays unclassified unless we make the
> effort to donate parts and get the science done.
>
> I just don't see what you are seeing and many other dealers are me
> asking what you are talking about...please share something concrete with
> us if you are seeing this. It is important for the confidence of the
> market in general.
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 6:00 PM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> <mailto:meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>> wrote:
>
> It is up to dealers to prove what they are selling is legitimate,
> not collectors/buyers after the transaction.? Why should a buyer
> have to ask for provenance and the chain of custody directly to the
> person named in a Meteoritical Bulletin? It is up to dealers to
> provide this information up front.? Who in their right mind would
> pay top dollar for untested and unclassified stones being put on the
> market as planetary pieces?
>
> If a dealer is too lazy to follow protocol then why should he/she be
> rewarded? There is no value added by simply reselling untested
> stones that are accompanied with stolen nomenclature and Meteortical
> Bulletin entries.
>
> Professionals see it as there is no such thing as an unclassified
> lunar.? It is either lunar or it is not.? There is no gray area.
> That is like somebody placing quartz (Herkimer Diamonds) on the
> market and trying to sell them as an unclassified natural diamonds.
> There are over 167,000 loose diamonds being offered on eBay.? Guess
> how many are real?? Most educated prospective buyers will not
> consider a stone without GIA certification.? Buyers learned the hard
> way when spending thousands of dollars for worthless paste.
>
> I see terrestrial breccias being offered up as lunar material on a
> consistent bases thus the acid test. If it fizzes or you cannot get
> a direct chain of custody to the classifying laboratory, you may
> consider asking for an immediate refund.? Save your hard earned
> money.? There is something to be learned from other markets where
> buyers have been stiffed.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 10/9/2017 2:55 AM, Graham Ensor wrote:
>
> I'm afraid it works the other way round too Adam...you would
> have to have a piece analysed by an expert to say what you are
> saying rather than just look at the pieces to see and conclude
> what they are. Every single piece of my lunar has been to the
> leading lab specializing in meteorites in the UK and been
> recorded, weighed and analysed to show it is lunar. I have the
> write up and science write up submitted for classification if
> you wish to see it. It is likely part of this new bigger find
> this year and matches the other material around that I see for
> what that is worth.
>
> Which reputable dealers are you accusing of selling the lunar
> material you think is not lunar by just looking at it? I'm sure
> you should pass that information on to help the community.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> <mailto:meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> <mailto:meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> <mailto:meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>>> wrote:
>
> ? ? A lot of the garbage being sold as lunar meteorites by
> so-called
> ? ? reputable dealers will not even pass the fizz test.
>
> http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml
> <http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml>
> ? ? <http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml
> <http://geology.com/minerals/acid-test.shtml>>
>
> ? ? Collectors are being fleeced out of thousands of dollars by
> ? ? terrestrial limestone breccias, some of which can be found
> in the
> ? ? Atlas Mountains near an impact structure. I would avoid or
> ask for a
> ? ? refund on any material that fizzes on a cut surface! I remember
> ? ? seeing the same crustless, caliche-rich material offered up
> at the
> ? ? Tucson Gem and Mineral show several years ago for
> $50.00/gram. Now
> ? ? it is being offered on eBay and other venues due to a somewhat
> ? ? similar appearance to genuine Lunar meteorites. I do not
> know if
> ? ? refunds were given to those who purchase this terrestrial
> material
> ? ? in the past or not.
>
> ? ? This is but one example of why all stones suspected as being
> ? ? planetary should be formally tested and classified.
>
> ? ? If in doubt, throw it out or demand a refund.
>
>
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Received on Tue 10 Oct 2017 12:54:43 PM PDT