[meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property', researchers required to hand findings over

From: Raremeteorites <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:13:28 -0800
Message-ID: <7AED4564ECD440F4A044ED3962ACAE8B_at_HPDESKTOP>

"rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation of the layman,"

The word "layman" has been banned due to Political Correctness. It should be
"layperson" or not used at all.





----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Agee via Meteorite-list" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
To: "Galactic Stone & Ironworks" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; "ian macleod"
<ianmacca81 at hotmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lake Eyre meteorite 'Crown property',
researchers required to hand findings over


> Not to bore everyone, but I'll repost thisexcerpt from Lincoln LaPaz's
> (founder of IOM)
> "Space Nomads: Meteorites in Sky, Field, and Laboratory". It is as
> true today as it was when the IOM was founded in 1944! Also relevant
> to this discussion I believe...
>
>
> "Meteorite hunting, unlike pure mathematics, cannot be conducted with
> success solely by publicity-shy individuals comfortably seated in
> armchairs. Unlike the chemist, who buys his research materials from
> catalogs; the bacteriologist, who brews up his cultures at will in a
> laboratory; and the botanist, who finds the objects of his
> experimentation in conveniently located greenhouse and herbarium, the
> meteoriticist is in large measure dependent on the general public for
> the specimens with which he works. In meteoritics, as in perhaps no
> other science, rapid progress depends on the intelligent cooperation
> of the layman, that fortunate individual destined, because of his
> ubiquitousness, not only to witness all meteorites yet to fall, but
> also, sooner or later, to stumble upon many of those that have already
> fallen..."
>
>
> *************************************
> Carl B. Agee
> President, Consortium for Materials Properties Research in Earth
> Sciences (COMPRES)
> Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
> Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
> MSC03 2050
> University of New Mexico
> Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
>
> Tel: (505) 750-7172
> Fax: (505) 277-3577
> Email: agee at unm.edu
> http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via
> Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> Hi Ian and List,
>>
>> Yes, we can all play keyboard king and tell the governments and the
>> world how we think things should be done. There will never be an ideal
>> world and compromises must be made to keep everyone relatively happy
>> (or at least content or apathetic). I agree that nobody's system is
>> perfect, regardless of national boundaries.
>>
>> Comparing meteorites to collecting baseball cards is disingenuous.
>> Rock and mineral collecting is one of the oldest expressions of
>> geology. Amateur participation in that field has a long established
>> history that has benefited museums and science over the years. For
>> some people, meteorites are another rock to collect. For some they are
>> research material. For some they are national treasures. Ultimately,
>> who "owns" a meteorite? Do we really want some bureaucrat deciding
>> that? Isn't this a case where common sense (ha!) should apply? Or,
>> call the lawyers and give them a pile of money to figure it out.
>>
>> I do not see the kind of rampant fraud and chicanery that Ian is
>> talking about. Sure, any marketplace has crooks (some vendors, some
>> buyers) and one has to only look at other collectible markets like
>> autographs or Tiffany glass to see that fraud is "rampant" there was
>> well. It all comes down to trust. If you don't trust the vendor's
>> honesty and expertise, then avoid their sales pitches.
>>
>> "> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen
>> out of
>>> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly
>>> described
>>> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
>>> provenance hand balling etc etc"
>>
>> Where are you looking exactly? eBay? Craigslist? Boot sales? You
>> can also buy a million types of snake oil at those same venues. It
>> doesn't mean it's a problem that is endemic in any given field that
>> sells or buys at that venue. Most known members of this mailing list
>> are trustworthy. We all know who is and who isn't. And the people who
>> are crooks get run out of town pretty quick. There are a few of us who
>> might be eccentrics, anti-socials, egotists, blowhards, or some other
>> species of the common jerk, but you know who to trust when it comes to
>> authenticity. The field sorts itself out and the informed buyer
>> chooses from well-established and reputable sources.
>>
>> Nobody likes thieves or scammers and the only issue I have with the
>> list of negative attributes on your list is "tiny fragments". As
>> someone who has owned, traded, and sold his share of tiny fragments,
>> that is not a negative thing that should be lumped in with thievery.
>>
>> As I am sure you are aware, most scientific analysis doesn't require
>> large volumes of material, especially redundant materials for
>> diminishing/no scientific gain. Even a 3mg Bessey Speck is big enough
>> for the microprobe and then some. It's scientific value might be
>> extremely limited if that speck represents yet another unremarkable H5
>> W4 from the NWA DCA.
>>
>> What about the samples from scientifically-interesting material like
>> NWA 7038? How much science could be done with a "tiny fragment" of
>> that? Speaking of remarkable meteorites with scientific value, the
>> recent Martian NWA 7038 was found by someone who never saw the inside
>> of a classroom, traded to another person with no degrees, and sold to
>> another guy with no letters after his name. Middle level dealers
>> bought and sold some pieces after it trickled down into the market,
>> and now people are paying $20-$50 for a crumb weighing less than 20mg.
>> If we had waited on a juried collection of bureaucrat-approved dandies
>> to make that recovery, "Black Beauty" would be buried in the desert
>> until all of it's value to science was eroded to nothing.
>>
>> Now, not much of that particular meteorite (or it's pairings) is on
>> the collector market waiting to be bought like a baseball card. But, a
>> "tiny fragment" can cost a day's work for some people, and does that
>> make it less valuable or less ethical? Should only well-heeled (or
>> connected) people of letters be allowed to collect meteorites? Should
>> I buy a tiny fragment of something for my collection (or research), or
>> should we budget-limited souls take our unwashed minds back to the
>> fleamarket and rummage for Beanie Babies and old postcards?
>>
>> If somebody is breaking the law to hunt (or buy,trade,sell,collect)
>> meteorites, then there are obviously laws already in place against
>> fraud and theft that need to be enforced. If somebody in the IMCA is
>> crooked, call them out and report them to the board. If somebody on
>> this List is crooked, call them out and let them answer for their
>> shady dealings.
>>
>> But, let's not act like some government or board of academics should
>> be the judge and jury of who gets to keep a meteorite found on private
>> property, or to decide who the owner of said meteorite should be able
>> to give/sell/trade it to for everyone's mutual satisfaction.
>>
>> I didn't mean to offend the hard working and ethical hunters in
>> Australia who abide by the rules and make recoveries that are
>> available to science. When I called out Australia, I did not mean -
>> "Ooooh look at Australia, their government is dumb and these people
>> can't trust their own citizens to own or trade a meteorite". What I
>> meant was this : take a look at Morocco or the US by comparison. Many
>> more finds are made, and made available to science because the process
>> of acquiring these finds does not involve a chain of forms in
>> triplicate, the approval of a ten-layer bureaucracy, and some
>> unelected yahoo deciding who keeps what and what it might be worth if
>> sold or traded.
>>
>> Does abuse happen in Morocco and the US? Yes, and existing laws in
>> those countries address those abuses. It's already illegal to smuggle
>> commodities. Trying to sneak an undeclared chocolate bar across
>> international borders can land you in a locked room. Nobody in their
>> right mind would want to sit in a Algerian jail for grand theft. It
>> doesn't mean people won't try it anyway, but that doesn't mean a
>> distant outside federal/imperial bureaucracy should have jurisdiction
>> over the issue.
>>
>> I don't know about you, I'd rather deal with the person who lives near
>> me, might know me, and has something in common with me - not some guy
>> with drank his way to a degree, wears a clip-on tie, and lives in a
>> walled compound 1000 miles away.
>>
>> In the end, conquerors write history books and make the laws. Ask the
>> American Indians who should own the meteorites that fall on American
>> soil. They are the rightful owners of the land, but a bunch of old
>> white guys with clip-on ties now call the shots here. Or, ask the
>> aborigines in Australia who own the meteorites that fall there. Oh,
>> you can't, because England used it for penal colony and then the
>> inmates took over. Or, ask the Argentines who gets to keep the Campos.
>> Oh wait, the original Campo owners were killed or bred out of
>> existence by Spanish and Portuguese "missionaries". (at least they are
>> in a better place now, right? The savages weren't landed gentry or
>> men of letters, so who cares.)
>>
>> Sorry Ian, I am not firing on your personally. I just get a little
>> ticked off at attitudes like that in the original article that started
>> this discussion. It reminded me of that terrible hit piece on the
>> "meteorite black market" in the NYT a few years back and that the IMCA
>> published a rebuttal to it.
>>
>> As far as tiny fragments being bad or negative, that is personal to me
>> also because I collect specimens of all types, including micromounts
>> and I trade in "tiny fragments". I have over 100 localities in my
>> collection that are all authentic. I can provide free samples large
>> enough for analysis to any authoritative institution that wishes to
>> test their validity. I trust my sources that well. If I didn't, I
>> wouldn't have acquired the specimen in the first place and I certainly
>> would not have offered it to someone else if there was ever any doubt
>> about it's authenticity. Any good dealer/trader/collector would
>> adhere to those standards, regardless of whether or not they had an
>> IMCA number.
>>
>> I gotta ask though, what is "provenance hand balling"? I have not
>> heard that one before. I assume it means falsifying or obfuscating
>> some part of the chain of custody? Or, am I just dense and missed this
>> one.
>>
>> Happy Huntings Ian. Nothing personal to you or Australian people. It's
>> more my frustration at unwarranted or incompetent government
>> intrustion into private or scientific affairs.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/15/16, ian macleod via Meteorite-list
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>> Hi List, we can bang on about laws all day (which actually vary here in
>>> Australia between states) and also point fingers at scientists and
>>> museum
>>> staff we don't know. At the end of the day the law is the law...Deal
>>> with
>>> it
>>>
>>>
>>> There is no elitism going on, these guys are nice enough they just have
>>> to
>>> make a point and warning in respect to laws.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob is right the Canadian model is a better system. The USA has too much
>>> freedom that is abused, Australia the opposite occurs
>>>
>>>
>>> The idea meteorites are not found or reported in Australia is far from
>>> accurate.
>>>
>>>
>>> See the USA enjoys a 'few' remaining labs that processing many kilograms
>>> of
>>> potentially stolen property out of NWA, this has given the appearance of
>>> very active work, and that something new is happening......respectfully
>>> I
>>> beg to differ
>>>
>>> We now have 50,000 meteorites and only 6 or so that we have orbit data
>>> for.
>>> The orbit ones were all found by camera networks NOT guys all over
>>> Africa
>>>
>>>
>>> So when it comes to collecting the next find like baseball cards or
>>> wanting
>>> to see meteoritics evolve.....I chose evolution
>>>
>>>
>>> I constantly see deception, fraud, ridiculous pricing, items stolen out
>>> of
>>> countries, governments and scientists disrespected, incorrectly
>>> described
>>> items, dubious provenance, destroyed samples, tiny fragments, endless
>>> provenance hand balling etc etc
>>>
>>>
>>> and this is coming from many IMCA and non IMCA sellers and hunters
>>>
>>>
>>> So sorry lads Im sticking with the scientists on this one and the with
>>> few
>>> people in the private collecting meteorite community I trust....
>>>
>>>
>>> Ian
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>
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>>
>>
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Received on Sat 16 Jan 2016 12:13:28 PM PST