[meteorite-list] [IMCA List] Martin Goff's Out Reach

From: Robert Verish <bolidechaser_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 03:31:28 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <980332674.29550.1416799888225.JavaMail.yahoo_at_jws106121.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Maybe Michael's questions are rhetorical, but I haven't read any answers or replies.
After all, in the past others have asked these same questions, and still never any satisfactory answers.

But, allow me to answer the question of "how do you guarantee authenticity?", by stating the obvious:
authenticity is established through well-documented provenance.

Which leads me to question why chose Battle Mountain and NWA 869 to use as examples to prove your case. You couldn't pick two meteorites that would be less supportive of the point you are trying to make.
I'm not saying that there aren't too many NWA chondrites being self-paired to NWA 869 for marketing convenience, but this is one that dealers somehow have maintained a respectable "batting average" with their guessing. Besides, how many complaints are there? Who's expectations are not being met when they purchase an uncut chondrite labeled as "NWA 869"?

Battle Mountain! BaM is the best example of a well-documented, recent fall. It has the shortest chain of provenance! It fell late 2012; it's hunted and recovered by collectors and dealers; it's sold by those same dealer's and BINGO, it's in your collection. Any questions? If so, don't have very far to go to get answers. That's called "provenance".
Who is "guaranteeing authenticity"? A quick search of "Completed" eBay auctions shows only one meteorite dealer (Mendy) having sold a 3.9g partslice of BaM, where he clearly shows his source, the finder, by way of the original label. That's another example of provenance.

But just because Michael used bad examples doesn't mean that the point he is trying to make isn't valid. In fact, I think the majority of us agree with him in principle.
Yet, asking questions such, "How do I really know that it is Battle Mountain and not one of hundreds of NWA L6 look-a-likes?" is very counter-productive, to say the least. Given that other customers can ask those same question, it's akin to pouring gasoline over oneself and then volunteering to light the ceremonial Burning-Man bon-fire.
To satisfy my curiosity, I found a link to images of "hundreds of NWA L6 look alikes": http://tinyurl.com/ksdmulw
Now, compare those to these images of BaM (L6) : http://tinyurl.com/oukblbh
 
Wow, never expected that my answer to a rhetorical question would be this long.
Anyway, I should thank everyone for giving my this opportunity to talk once more about Battle Mountain.
It has prompted me to relinquish 2 of my BaM specimens, and I've uploaded them onto eBay.
If it makes everyone happy, I WON'T "guarantee authenticity"!
But I'm still going to guarantee your satisfaction, or your money back!
(Isn't that really the only thing that IMCA can require of their members?
;-)
Bob V.

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 9:01 AM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:


>
>
>Hi Jim and List,
>
>Please do not take this as a knock at the IMCA, because it is not
>intended that way, and I certainly do want to experience the old
>"shoot the messenger" syndrome again.
>
>How exactly does anyone "guarantee authenticity" in regards to meteorites?
>
>Let's look at a typical example that happens on a daily basis in the
>meteorite community :
>
>If I am offered a specimen of Battle Mountain by a dealer. How do I
>really know that it is Battle Mountain and not one of hundreds of NWA
>L6 look-a-likes? Regardless of whether or not the seller is an IMCA
>member, how can one guarantee authenticity of any specimen, unless
>that particular specimen has been examined and analyzed by a reputable
>scientist?
>
>I do not know of any dealers who have every batch of material they
>acquire tested at a lab. They use a combination of faith in their
>sources and hand-examination to determine if the material should be
>offered. Sure, new unclassified material is analyzed to have it
>classified and officially approved by Met Soc. But what about NWA
>869? How many dealers have their NWA 869 analyzed prior to offering
>it? If it is untested, then how can one make any guarantees?
>
>Best regards,
>
>MikeG
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
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>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>On 11/23/14, Jim Wooddell via Meteorite-list
><meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> Hello all!
>>
>> The IMCA has but one purpose, does it not? How can you possibly argue
>> that???
>> It's for collectors, dealers and sellers....pretty basic mission,
>> Authenticity . Nothing wrong with that!
>> And any kind of outreach by the IMCA very much appears to be a mistake
>> in perception.
>> The IMCA is not responsible for anything it's members do and probably
>> should not take any credit for
>> anything their individual members do as it implies responsibility.
>>
>> Like Gary said, it's up to the individual.
>> I don't think anyone is not supportive of outreach, it's just not the
>> function of the IMCA.
>>
>> REF: http://imca.cc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=14
>>
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On 11/22/2014 8:39 PM, Galactic Stone & Ironworks via Meteorite-list wrote:
>>> Ray Watts said :
>>>
>>> "I have been told in the past that out reach is over reach for the
>>> I.M.C.A."
>>>
>>> Whoever said that, has no business being in the IMCA or any other
>>> group that claims to be supportive of education and outreach. Walk
>>> the walk or get the hell out.
>>>
>>> My two cents.
>>>
>>> Also, agree 110% with what Gary said.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> MikeG
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Wooddell
>> jim.wooddell at suddenlink.net
>> http://pages.suddenlink.net/chondrule/
>>
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>>
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Received on Sun 23 Nov 2014 10:31:28 PM PST