[meteorite-list] My apology to Mike Farmer
From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 13:17:50 -0400 Message-ID: <CAKBPJW-cs26fLtz8KcY5cJDQJugoT+ZRaXUhwMgZmzRCKEqtMw_at_mail.gmail.com> Hi List, This is why the chain of custody and the reputations of the people in the chain of custody are the most important considerations in the mind of this collector. As Adam alluded to with "high end collectibles" - there are authentication services and agencies that utilize experts to analyze a given item and compare it to known genuine articles and known counterfeits. A true expert with long experience in a specific type of collectible is very reliable. When backed up with proper documentation, then the item is guaranteed as genuine by force of the reputation of the authenticating agency via the paperwork. Things like coins, baseball cards, and certain human artifacts, are readily identified and graded by condition. Meteorites are much more difficult to verify and grade. First, one does not need an electron microprobe to determine if a Reggie Jackson rookie card is genuine. Secondly, very few collectors purchase coins or baseball cards based on subjective criteria like aesthetics or orientation. Another example, take an moderately-fresh NWA L6 being passed off as a rare historical L6 chondrite. A petrographic or hand examination might not be enough to determine the origin of a specimen. In such a case, a scientist with expertise in meteorite pairings is needed to interpret the results - such specialist scientists don't grow on trees and they are not lining up around the block to donate valuable instrument time to settle collector disputes between laymen. Another consideration - COA's and paperwork are valuable, make no mistake about that. But, they have their own unique considerations with meteorites that do not exist with coins, gemstones, or other regulated/graded/authenticated collectibles. A valuable coin graded and authenticated by a respected agency can be contacted directly and easily to verify the authenticated article via a serial number. This does not exist in the meteorite world. Any yahoo with a laser printer and a modicum of talent for desktop publishing can create some very slick and professional-looking COA's - many of which are only worth the paper they are printed on. To some collectors, like me, a simple type-written specimen card from a dealer like Blaine Reed means the world over a package of slick looking COA's and brochures from some unknown or fly-by-night dealer. Heck, I'll take a hand-written "card" on an airline napkin from the right dealer. The reputation of the dealer is the key. Discovering or judging this requires a measure of determination on the part of the buyer. Be prepared to spend a couple of hours (or more) searching the web, mailing list archives, and forum archives to find the relevant information. If in doubt, locate someone experienced who is widely deemed as trustworthy and ask that person for guidance. Or failing that, post an open question to the Met-List and have the query considered by hundreds of the most experienced meteorite people on the planet, and I am sure at least one will render some helpful information. Anyone who purchases a valuable and/or rare specimen without doing this fundamental homework is engaging in risky behavior (with any collectible, including meteorites). I've been around long enough now to have witnessed too many of these events in the meteorite world. These scandals (small and big) haven't spoiled my enjoyment of collecting meteorites, but I have grown wiser for watching them unfold and studying them. Each case is different and merits it's own considerations. The important thing with any mistake, scandal, scam, or collusion, is that the source is discovered and any suspect material is revealed publicly and removed from the market. The marketplace will render it's own judgements based on the reputations of those parties involved, the individual circumstances surrounding each case, and the response (or lack of) by the seller/source. Ideally, each case is an honest mistake - the seller makes it right and the buyer is satisfied with the exchange after event is played out. If the material is misidentified but otherwise genuine meteorite, then it should be properly identified and publicly announced so other buyers of the same material can be made aware. If the material is bogus, then it should be publicly exposed and then removed from the market. Phone calls ensue, refunds are sent, and eventually there are handshakes and shared beers/cigars. It all boils down to - buyer beware and know your seller. Best regards and happy collecting/hunting, MikeG -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Web - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone Twitter - http://twitter.com/GalacticStone Pinterest - http://pinterest.com/galacticstone RSS - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 ------------------------------------------------------------- On 6/9/13, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote: > I will not lighten up. This is very serious. I have no problem whatsoever > with Andi. One or two mistakes over a long period of time is > understandable. Taking immediate responsibility for a mistake is admirable > and the right thing to do. > > It is when I see a pattern that I become alarmed. I have observed > long-winded descriptions in the artifact market. This is reason for great > concern. Genuine artifacts with proper papering stand on their own and do > not need novels or excuses to describe them. One just needs to contact the > authenticator with a unique serial number and any doubts will be removed. > The same goes for coins, baseball cards and many other high end > collectables. Do meteorites need to go the same way? > > > In meteorites, collectors depend more on trust than papering. It would be > cost prohibitive to have independently produced C.O.A.s with unique serial > numbers for each every named specimen. This is where trust comes in. Trust > can only be violated so many times and then confidence goes away. I see > this happening now. > > > > Adam > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Fujihara <fujmon at mac.com> > To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> > Cc: MeteorList <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My apology to Mike Farmer > > Aloha Adam, > > Lighten up. As Alex stated, no one is perfect and immune from making errors. > We are all human and we all make mistakes. Martin and Andi have been > gracious to admit their mistake and accept responsibility for their parts in > this unfortunate incident. And for that, I have the utmost respect for > them. > > Andi, keep up your good works in meteorites, and Martin, please get out in > the sun again - vitamin D is good for you and the pasty look is most > unbecoming. ;^) > > gary > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> How many bites at the apple do you want? How many more reputations need to >> be destroyed? How many times does this have to happen in order to >> completely destroy collector confidence? I had my worst week ever on eBay >> after this latest incident. It not only affects collectors, it undermines >> those who vet their products properly. >> >> I think an exclusive apology to Mike Farmer doesn't go far enough. >> Distributing fake ID cards along with the bogus material and then claiming >> it came from a Meteorite Icon has gone way too far. Any meteorite dealer >> who has been around for a few years would have recognized this material >> for what is really is; "Garbage put on the market in order to fleece >> collectors out of their hard earned money" >> >> Happy Collecting, >> >> Adam >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> Cc: >> Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 5:33 AM >> Subject: [meteorite-list] My apology to Mike Farmer >> >> (A.S.: Hi Art, please let it through, it's important for me, but also for >> the collectors for not falling for the same scam) >> >> >> Hello, >> >> After a few days of contemplation (sorry for having been slow, but they >> were >> necessary for me to cool down), >> I want to publically and cordially apology to you all, and especially to >> Mike Farmer, hoping he will accept it. >> I was wrong and my reaction was crude, unjust and inadequate. >> All three specimens in question turned out to be fakes. >> >> Mike was right >> and due to his expertise it was avoided that the pseudo-Estherville came >> in >> further circulation, >> neither the forged Bondoc nor the faked Murchison were distributed, >> so that a direct damage, caused by my fault, to the community was >> averted. >> Therefore we have to thank Mike. >> >> Those fakes must have been built by someone, who has a deeper knowledge >> about meteorites, >> as it's relatively uncommon, that classical names of semi-rarely >> meteorites >> are used and the fakes equipped with a legend and labels. (So far we can >> recall only another case, the forged Dhofar-Moon, which was more easy to >> unmask, as the specimens came with a "certification" of the university >> Muenster, which doesn't issue such, and the find was only one stone, so >> that >> the finder himself immediately could identify them as fakes, as no >> fragments >> of that stone did exist). >> >> We tried to investigate the case further, fearing that more of such fakes >> will appear to the harm of the collectors. >> But the seller seems to be now untraceable. >> His name is: Jank? Zolt?n from Hungary. He claimed to have purchased an >> older mineral collection a few years ago, where these specimens were a >> part >> of among other meteorites. And the collector's name, he gave, is: J?zsef >> Vida from Derecske. >> >> So we ask you all, to be extremely cautious (and to inform us) if persons >> of >> these names contact you. >> >> >> Well, 33 years I was able to sort out the fakes, wrongs, mislabeled ones, >> now I failed. >> That shouldn't and that mustn't happen and is in that field unforgivable. >> (At least, after having learned the lesson, also to behave better, I hope >> to >> stay fake-free now till 2046). >> >> >> So I end with the necessary: Mea maxima culpa, >> and stay in silent contrition until I'll be allowed >> to see the sun again.. >> >> Martin Altmann >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> >> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ______________________________________________ >> >> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > Gary Fujihara > Big Kahuna Meteorites Inc. > PO Box 4175, Hilo, HI 96720 > (808) 640-9161 > http://bigkahuna-meteorites.com/ > http://www.ebay.com/sch/fujmon/m.html > > ______________________________________________ > > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >Received on Sun 09 Jun 2013 01:17:50 PM PDT |
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