[meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st October 2012

From: Pict <pict_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:44:58 +0400
Message-ID: <CD393DA1.1203F%pict_at_pict.co.uk>

I was interested in the question he posed about who owned Antarctic
meteorites, which he followed on by saying the answer was similar to that
derived from maritime law (day job blah de blah) and then proceeded to
amble aimlessly along failing to say what the answer was. Maybe I missed
it. It was early and I may be in need of a coffee upgrade. Anyway came off
as peppered with half truths, whole truths and nothing but the truth,
except all the derivative work which has some semblance of accuracy
intact. I am especially impressed that we have the technology to paint
asteroids or place an extremely massive object in a slightly divergent
orbit to a threat that remains close enough, long enough at some point in
the orbit to safely perturb both from a visit to terra firma. Kepler would
be proud of us.

Regards,
John



On 07/02/2013 21:58, "Adam Hupe" <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Not worth stomaching the full 22 minutes. Most of his material including
>the charts have already been used in other talks or seen on television
>documentaries. Nothing like piggybacking on others hard work. Like a
>typical lawyer, he tried to convey a point by slamming an Odessa
>meteorite onto the stage and exclaiming it was legally imported into
>Canada. I will give him 1/2 credit for showmanship on the stage for this
>attention gathering stunt. On the other hand, it was disrespectful to
>the Odessa Iron.
>
>
>It seems this non-scientists covets meteorites for non-scientific
>purposes like the rest of us. Why else would he use an American
>meteorite for a prop to shameless self-promote himself in front of a
>camera?
>
>Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Mendy Ouzillou <ouzillou at yahoo.com>
>To: Carl Agee <agee at unm.edu>
>Cc: MEM <mstreman53 at yahoo.com>; Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>;
>Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on
>21st October 2012
>
>
>Very nice. Will have to read the full article later.
>
>Mendy Ouzillou
>
>On Feb 6, 2013, at 9:33 PM, Carl Agee <agee at unm.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Hi Mendy,
>
>PSRD recently did a nice piece on our Science article on "Black Beauty"
>for the non-specialist: http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Jan13/NWA7034.html
>
>Here is a quote from a section of the article about the discovery which
>involved dealers, collectors, and scientists, all in a positive light.
>And rightfully so, because without NWA, meteoritics would be diminished
>as a science.
>
>Carl
>
>
>Finding
>a Special Meteorite
>Some
>meteorites are observed to fall, but most are found. They fall all over,
>most
>splashing into the ocean where recovery is unlikely. Many are found by
>observant people who plow up an unusual rock on their farm or hear a
>clang when
>digging in their gardens. In wet climates, fallen meteorites rot
>practically as
>soon as they fall, in some cases lasting in the dirt for only a few
>decades.
>The best place to preserve them is in dry places, either wet or dry
>deserts
>(see PSRD article: Meteorites on Ice.) These environments do not
>necessarily perfectly preserve these valuable rocks from the sky, but
>they do a
>much better job than do temperate and tropical climates.
>There
>are two incredibly important search areas for desert meteorites. One is
>Antarctica, where national agencies manage organized searches each
>Antarctic summer
>using teams of meteorite hunters in cold-weather garb to look for
>promising
>rocks atop the ice sheet. The other area is in northwest Africa, with more
>free-wheeling, privately-funded search efforts. That is where NWA 7034 [
>Data link from the Meteoritical Bulletin ] came
>from. It traveled from the desert of Morocco to the desert of New Mexico
>via
>the plains of Indiana. The meteorite's terrestrial trip began when it was
>found
>in 2011 by Aziz Habibi, a Moroccan meteorite dealer. Mr. Habibi sold it
>in 2011
>to American meteorite collector Jay Piatek, a medical doctor who runs the
>Piatek Institute in Indianapolis, Indiana. Dr. Piatek has a large
>meteorite
>collection and like many collectors shares his samples with meteorite
>researchers. He has worked with the group at the UNM Institute of
>Meteoritics
>before. Although the rock's shiny, black fusion crust clearly showed it
>was a
>meteorite, Dr. Piatek was puzzled about what kind of meteorite it was. So
>was
>Carl Agee when he received the sample from Dr. Piatek and pondered it for
>a
>month before sawing off a slice to reveal a dark-grey almost black
>breccia,
>unlike any achondrite he had seen. Once Agee and his
>colleagues did a bulk analysis of a small piece of NWA 7034, which had
>not yet
>received its official, certified name from the Nomenclature Committee of
>the
>Meteoritical Society [ MetSoc link ], they realized what had been
>sitting on Carl Agee's shelf: a piece of Mars. Dr. Piatek generously
>donated a
>slice of the valuable (scientifically and financially) sample to the UNM
>Institute of Meteoritics.
>
>
>On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Mendy Ouzillou <ouzillou at yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>The facts below are very well stated. So, we can either tear apart
>arguments
>>but hold our tongues, or we can put together a news release of our own
>>highlighting the incredible (and only most recent) collaboration between
>>meteorite hunters, collectors and scientists on Black Beauty and its
>>sisters. I would like to call on the IMCA to speak out in defense of the
>>"C"
>>in IMCA to raise awareness of the good work going on. Yes, maybe there
>>are a
>>few bad apples in the hunting and collecting community, but the
>>scientific
>>community is not perfect either. Again, let's focus on the good.
>>I'm not one to allow me or the community at large (which includes
>>thoughtful, inclusive and appreciative scientists/meteoriticists) to be
>>slandered or be given a black eye without a fight.
>>As I have stated multiple times before, I'm happy to help craft a news
>>release, but can't do it by myself. So, in the scientific community,
>>anyone
>>willing to go on the record and be quoted (does not have to be in
>>relation
>>to Black Beauty) in response to this specific issue? Even better, anyone
>>out
>>there want to be the "goto" person, i.e. an advocate, to respond to these
>>negative remarks. I am aware of Marc Fries doing a very nice job of this,
>>and others, but unfortunately this is a message that must be continuously
>>reinforced.
>>Thoughts?
>>Mendy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
>>[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of MEM
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 5:56 PM
>>To: Adam Hupe; Adam
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on
>>21st
>>October 2012
>>
>>Let me get this in perspective. 25,000+ meteorites are locked up in
>>ANSMET
>>deep freezers wholly available to researchers only. Another 31,000+?
>>non
>>ANSMET ( ANSMET and METBUL figures) are in the met bulletin. All
>>meteorites
>>passing muster have between 100% and 20% owned by approved/certified
>>institutions of curation.
>>
>>As Emma Peel the Wendy's Lady might have said..."Where's the beef?"
>>
>>So please someone somewhere give me the name of a credentialed researcher
>>anywhere in the world that cannot get hold of specific material to do
>>their
>>research? Were it not for the collector community there would not be the
>>1000's of newly found meteorites available in the first place.
>>
>>How many confirmed but non-NONCOM approved, distinct meteorites are
>>totally
>>in private hands without a speck available for research? Does anyone on
>>the
>>list have an unclassified NWA that would not gladly share a portion if a
>>scientist came calling?
>>
>>The blurb bout selling it "illegally on ebay" is outright fear
>>mongering. If
>>he is a maritime law expert shouldn't he be calling us "pirates" as
>>well?
>>And speaking of slander, why is no one publicly concerned about
>>Jennskins'
>>interviews where he talks about "Outlaw meteorite hunters"and the
>>"meteorite
>>black market"? Give me an answer and I'll hold my tongue and(Chicago
>>convention excepted) speak no more of it. I do not care that he is
>>"Mister
>>Meteor" nor that he may be world renown but he shouldn't be given a pass
>>on
>>his uninformed public statements regarding our community. I really would
>>like to see his direct response published, should he ever again be
>>misquoted
>>like the "black market" statements regarding the Gabal Kamal Iron. We
>>would
>>have his position on record. Better yet, if he truly understood from an
>>informed position he might never make disparaging comments to reporters.
>>
>>Which brings us to the other meteorite law logical fallacy: "Cultural
>>property" and Doug Schmitt's building on the "cultural heritage defense
>>to
>>outlaw private ownership of meteorites. Where a meteorite should land is
>>random so its ascension to protected "native heritage/cultural object" is
>>unfounded. I understand Willemitte and Hoba, perhaps Cape York owing to
>>separate reasons. If they were men of integrity they would just pass
>>their
>>LOCAL laws regarding meteorite ownership. And let the rest of the world
>>be.
>>By using cultural object status they are violating their own obligation
>>to
>>preserve in tact and not slice it up for study.
>>
>>Elton
>>
>>PS: So according to Schmitt's TED talk only iron meteorites originate in
>>the asteroid belt and are the oldest objects in the universe(sic)
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
>>> To: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 5:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on
>>> 21st October 2012
>>>
>>>
>>> In my opinion, NOT a friend of the meteorite hunting community.
>>>
>>>
>>> Seems he found his
>>> 22-minutes worth of fame outside of his area of expertise. He should
>>> stick to maritime law instead of demonizing the commercial aspects of
>>> meteorite hunting which have contributed far more to science than his
>>> videotaped self-promoting blather.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: karmaka <karmaka-meteorites at t-online.de>
>>> To: met-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2013 11:16 AM
>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Doug Schmitt's Talk at TEDxVancouver on 21st
>>> October 2012
>>>
>>> There Are 5,000 Meteors Heading Our Way... Now What?:
>>>
>>> Doug Schmitt at TEDxVancouver on 21st October 2012
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqcHaN91YSA
>>>
>>> " Doug Schmitt is a Partner with Alexander Holburn Beaudin + Lang LLP,
>>> who has been practicing maritime law for over 32 years. Drawing on
>>> similarities to the law of the seas, Doug has become one of the
>>> world's few published authors on meteorite law. A member of the
>>> Meteoritical Society, a non-profit scholarly organization founded in
>>> 1933 to promote the study of extraterrestrial materials, he sits on
>>> that organization's Working Group drafting the code of ethics for
>>> collecting and distributing meteorites. Doug's scientific and legal
>>> backgrounds position him ideally to offer insight from two distinct
>>> disciplines into a fascinating topic: the possible consequences for
>>humankind of a failure to properly study meteorites."
>>>
>>> Martin
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
>
>--
>Carl B. Agee
>Director and Curator, Institute of Meteoritics
>Professor, Earth and Planetary Sciences
>MSC03 2050
>University of New Mexico
>Albuquerque NM 87131-1126
>
>Tel: (505) 750-7172
>Fax: (505) 277-3577
>Email: agee at unm.edu
>http://meteorite.unm.edu/people/carl_agee/
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>
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Received on Thu 07 Feb 2013 02:44:58 AM PST