[meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

From: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1332603718.78315.YahooMailNeo_at_web162906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I think collectors might be confusing COAs with ID cards.? We are lucky that ID cards suffice in the meteorite market most of the time.? As far as I know, nobody has passed off counterfeit ID cards from my collection yet.? This would be like poking a stick into a beehive as far as I am concerned.? The only COAs I have provided that were printed by myself were for crumbs or cutting dust encased in laminated collectors cards. The pieces were so small that I felt collectors would appreciate a little more assurance. They are also serialized with the certification statement on the back.

The only other COAs I have provided came with some NWA 5000 specimens.? These COAs came from an immensely-qualified independent grader.? I had no input whatsoever on how individual specimens would be graded since many factors were independently taken into account.?? I have never graded any specimens myself.? I have however provided comments when I feel a special feature needs to be pointed out. The grades that came on my ID cards were provided by researchers approved by the Meteoritical Society's Nomenclature Committee and can be referenced in the Bulletin.? Despite popular belief, there are a few errors in the Bulletin so no system is perfect.?


I hope this clears things up,

Kind Regards,


Adam

________________________________
From: John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com>
To: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

Hi Mike, Adam, and List,
Interesting opinions.

You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there are parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share how I feel about the subject.

First of all Mike you said,

" I thought this was laughable for obvious
reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of
COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on.? I can go outside,
grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for
it."

Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any provenance or COA.

For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well known dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to realize a higher price? The well know dealer.

Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you explain this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on?

For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection without Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg collection with his COA right?

So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in my opinion.

I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think that the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them, they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the same price that
the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have created about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me.

Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds value, making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has to offer me next. It gives them something to hold onto other than just the meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow vision goggles and only focus on the meteorite itself, throwing everything else away and assigning absolutely no value as to how the meteorite ended up where it is, but I don't think that's a very scientific approach. It's all part of the story and how you ended up with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and collecting.

I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it comes with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the marking wears off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0. Cant sell it because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want to sell it, how can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot of those questions, sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is, but it wont prove the origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who demand provenance, and I don't blame them one bit. The value to any assigned meteorite is less without the papers.

Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your dealing with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike, it's not worth the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can always give something, even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it came from you and what it is. Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is useless and it's like comparing Apples to Oranges... Two totally different perspectives that are neither right or wrong just are what they are, each of us our own independent opinions.

Adam you said,

" A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
?bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
?some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves."

Adam, with all due respect, I don't understand this statement, where do you and your COA's fit into the picture? Don't you print the COA and describe/grade the meteorites you sell and classify? Sounds like you would be hesitant to buy meteorites from yourself? I think comparing baseball cards and antiques that hold cultural value to meteorites that hold both cultural and scientific value, is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

To Everyone,
I would like to go one step further, I urge the meteorite community at large to consider standardizing COA's and provenance. Each dealer should still have his/her own unique style but there should be a simple standardized field of data provided for each specimen. This will promote the science of studying them, adding value to all of our collections in the future.

Thanks for taking the time to hear my opinion, Have a Great Day!
Best Regards,
John Higgins
www.outerspacerocks.com
IMCA # 9822






________________________________
From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
Cc: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings meteorite - $2000 SikhoteAlin

Hi Adam and List,

Some good points there.

About COA's - even if a COA comes from a trusted grading or
certification firm, the value in the COA is not the COA itself, it is
the name of the grading or certification service on it that is known
to collectors of that particular type of collectible.? If you buy a
rare collectible and the COA says "Confirmed authentic by Acme
Certification Services, Walla Walla Washington, Serial number
#123456", then the value of the certificate is that the buyer or
potential buyer can contact Acme Services, have them check their
database and confirm that the item in question is indeed genuine.
However, anyone can print a piece of paper that looks like it came
from Acme Certification Services and the ruse will only be exposed if
the buyer follows up on the info printed on the COA.???The COA itself
is worthless.

In the world of meteorites, there is no certification service or
central authority that can be relied upon to authenticate meteorites.
Without an authoritative body backing a COA, it's just a pretty piece
of paper.

Otherwise, I agree 100% with the other things you said.? :)

Best regards,

MikeG

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On 3/23/12, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
> A lot of buyers judge the price of collectable items from eBay.? EBay is
> not known for fetching top dollar, especially on collectables.? A solid
> auction house will almost always fetch more than what would be realized
> on eBay.? The problem with many auction houses is that their commissions are
> out of line, some charging in excess of 40%! Then some fleece the
> buyers with expensive shipping and handling fees.
>
> Don't get me wrong, there are a few great auction companies out there, I
> have used some of them.? One problem I encountered is that if the item
> doesn't sell or the buyer can't pay for the item after bidding on it,
> then the seller can be out of some serious money including catalog and
> no-sell fees.? They need to do a better job of vetting their bidders!
>
> A lot of dealers don't bother with middle men anymore since they can get
> wholesale prices right off of eBay.? Some specialty shops get most of
> there product from eBay, mark it up considerably and put it on their
> shelves. The problem is that a lot the collectable items offered on eBay
> have no expertise behind them and are accidentally or purposely
> misrepresented.
>
> There are reputable independent companies that can authenticate and paper
> items so COAs? are important to me.? I wouldn't purchase a valuable
> coin, baseball card or any other collectable without first seeing that
> it has been papered through an independent grading and certificate
> service.? A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
> bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
> some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves.
>
> Kind Regards and Happy Collecting,
>
> Adam
> ______________________________________________
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Received on Sat 24 Mar 2012 11:41:58 AM PDT