[meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )

From: John higgins <*geohiggins_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 14:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1332538389.62068.YahooMailNeo_at_web126006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> · geohiggins_at_meteoritecentral.com

-- 
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Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
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On 3/23/12, John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Mike and List,
>
>
> What a great response, thanks for that. I greatly appreciate your comments.
> Mike I really love and enjoy buying your meteorites and they all come with
> ID cards.
> You always give a nice one, I think this debate comes down to the
> confusion over what is a ID card, compared to what is a COA and the umbrella
> of
> provenance it all falls under.
>
> I really feel that the paper adds a Cultural and Historical dimension to
> otherwise what would only be a Scientific object.
>
> It's important because the provenance can help add to the scientific value
> as well, it's like a tracking number. And can help you find out more
> information about the specimen in the future if you want to find out more.
> Now this is where a standardized data form comes into play and would
> immediately add value to all meteorites sold in the future. Wouldn't it be
> worth it to have some of the historical background as to how the meteorite
> came about other than what is stored on the meteoritical society data base?
> What if Joe Schmo ends up with a rare meteorite that originated from another
> collection and it looks a little funny, what should you be expected to do,
> test every specimen or trust the Provenance that comes with it? You have to
> then make a judgment call, first you evaluate who is Joe Schmo? Then you
> evaluate all the documents as well as the story that comes along with it. Or
> like you said you can already know Joe Schmoe and trust the guy or not.
>
> Now you say it's a big world of all different kinds of people looking to buy
> meteorites.
>
> Sure there is a BIG WORLD of meteorite collectors from every echelon of
> existence. It's fine if you want to focus on the newbies or those who don't
> know enough about provenance and reputation or those that don't even care.
> It's a free World, thank God last time I checked, people are free to choose
> to and do whatever they want at least for the most part in some countries.
> But don't you want to stand out among and impress all the advanced
> collectors and buyers that do care? That's a huge percentage of potential
> customers that your shafting by not providing supporting documentation. That
> why I think COA's, ID, Provenance whatever you choose to call it should be
> provided with each and every specimen. It might not add value for everybody,
> but it will to the ones who care, and I don't think there is a shortage of
> collectors who are passionate and care enough to say it's important.
>
>
> You say, sure anyone can scan and copy and make a fake COA, but I don't
> think it's that easy, how can you get the same paper, the same patina that
> you only get with age on that paper? I truly beg to differ on this. And if
> your worried about someone copying your COA then you should go the extra
> mile to make it copy deterrent. You are only hurting yourself if you make a
> flimsy photocopy that someone can easily duplicate. That all comes back
> round to your reputation.
>
> That should be your job as the seller to make sure you customer is confident
> that they are getting what you say. I don't think this is a valid excuse to
> say because it can be copied it should not be done, you can easily make a
> excuse for anything, that doesn't make it right.
>
>
> I know there is great confusion about the differences between a Specimen
> Card, ID Card, COA.
>
> In my opinion they all fall under the same umbrella, provenance.
>
> I see the paper as the dealers reputation, when they do a good job on the
> COA, it shows me they care, they want to go the extra mile for the
> collector. I like that.
>
>
> The extreme position you can take for being against COA's.
> "We know where the specimen comes from, Outer Space."
>
> But I think that statement can turn into another argument in and of itself.
> It sells the meteorite short in my opinion.
>
>
> I like to buy from dealers who care about presentation, don't mind spending
> a extra few minutes to build that WOW factor that nobody no matter how hard
> they try can duplicate.
>
>
> I agree with you Mike, when I get those packages in the zip-lock with no ID
> card or anything. It makes me wanna cry.
> makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs:
>
> SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE CULTURE AND THE SCIENCE!
>
> I urge other dealers to take the extra steps to advance our COA's together
> we can elevate meteorite collecting to the next level, and put our
> meteorites where they belong up on the pedestal.
>
> Yes you can say I'm passionate about meteorites in every respect.
>
>
> Sincerely Best Regards,
> John Higgins
> ww.outerspacerocks.com
> IMCA# 9822
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>? From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> To: John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 3:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings ( PROVENANCE COA's )
>
>
> Hi John and List,
>
> I was not knocking any dealer's reputation, just expressing an opinion
> about COA's in general.? I think we are blurring the line here between
> a specimen card and a COA.? I like specimen cards.? I am indifferent
> towards COA's.
>
> For example, you say that a meteorite from a well-known dealer is
> worth more than a similar meteorite offered by a lesser-known dealer.
> This is true to some extent, but that increase in worth comes from the
> seller of the meteorite and not the piece of paper that came with it.
> For example, an unscrupulous collector or dealer could easily forge a
> Hupe or Farmer specimen card.? This is not US currency we are talking
> about that has built-in safeguards against counterfeiting.? All it
> would take to turn any meteorite into a Hupe or Farmer meteorite is a
> laser printer, card stock paper, and Photoshop.? Or, easier yet, a
> scanner.? Scan an original specimen card and Photoshop in whatever
> details you want.? This is not rocket science and most 12 year olds
> are computer savvy enough to do this.
>
> This is where provenance and dealer reputation is of the utmost
> importance, and neither of those things hinge solely on a piece of
> paper or cardstock.? Everyone knows Bob Haag and the Hupes, and we all
> know they abide by the highest standards.? They would never pass off a
> misrepresented meteorite and if they say they acquired it originally
> from collector X or dealer X, then you can take their word on it.? The
> COA or specimen card is secondary.
>
> Ironic thing is, the perceived increased value of a meteorite that
> comes from a well-known dealer is only valid with knowledgeable
> buyers.? A newbie who doesn't know a Hupe from John Smith and doesn't
> know or care where it came from, or chain of custody, or authenticity.
> I've bought specimens from you, the Hupes, Farmer, and dozens of
> other dealers and turned around and flipped those specimens for a
> profit - I am lesser known than those dealers, yet I realized a higher
> price for the specimen.? Why?? Because the market is a fickle mistress
> and there are a million buyers out there from newbies to veterans and
> each buyer has different criteria concerning what they regard as
> valuable.???If I buy a slice of meteorite from you and then try to
> resell that slice, is it worth less or more?? Who decides?? I can
> offer it for X dollars and I may or may not get that price.? It's up
> to the buyer to decide whether or not the specimen is worth the money.
> That is why the gentleman on Auction Kings paid $2000 for a $200
> specimen and thought he got a great deal.? If he's happy, then he did.
>
> I'm not knocking any dealer, specimen cards, or provenance.? What I am
> knocking is COA's for meteorites.? There is no governing body, not
> even the IMCA, that can grade or authenticate any meteorite with
> authority and then provide a COA that has any real meaning.? That may
> change one day, but as of right now it's true.? Give me any dealer's
> COA and I can reproduce a copy of it that is indistinguishable from
> the original.? And that is the danger with COA's - they provide a
> false sense of security regarding the specimen's authenticity.
>
> The best safeguard against buying a fake or misrepresented meteorite
> is to buy only from reputable dealers - and buyers discover who those
> dealers are by doing their homework and by gaining experience with the
> market.? I may be a "lesser known" dealer, but my track record is
> spotless regarding authenticity and will always remain so, because
> whether I am liked or not, my specimens are exactly what I say they
> are - from the tiniest speck to the biggest iron.
>
> I won't name names, but a few of the "well known" dealers do exactly
> what you say you don't like - they throw a specimen in a ziploc
> baggie, write on the baggie with a sharpie, and provide no specimen
> card or COA.? When I first encountered this years ago, I was very
> surprised.? I once bought a $1000 slice of Seymchanpallasite that
> came in a plain bubble mailer with no receipt, no card, no COA, and no
> packaging material to protect it.? I was amazed that it arrived
> undamaged through USPS with no insurance or tracking.? This was from a
> very well-known dealer, member of this List, IMCA member, and someone
> who was recently in the media.? Needless to say, I haven't bought
> anything from that person since and probably will not buy from them
> again ever.? I was lucky my specimen didn't get lost or damaged.
>
> John, I do agree with you 100% that all dealers should get together
> and provide some kind of standardized COA or authentication regime -
> it would greatly improve the integrity of the market.? But,
> implementing such a regime would be problematic and I think that is
> why we have not seen this happen yet.? For example, is a specimen
> really Zulu Queen, or just an NWA L-type chondrite?? Who can tell?
> Only lab-work will tell, and not even the most trained eye can
> authenticate most meteorites.? Until we find someone who has an
> electron microprobe and is willing to use that instrument for free to
> authenticate meteorites for us, then we are stuck with using visual
> comparisons and tracing chain of custody/provenance - and the honor
> system.
>
> Having said all of that, let me state that I am greatly impressed with
> the presentation of your meteorites.? Your specimen card/COA is very
> nice and professional looking.? The custom baggies you use, the
> labels, and all the inserts are top-notch.? Heck, they are better than
> 99% of the other big dealers who are more well-known.? I'm not
> knocking you or anyone else for providing such materials with their
> specimens.? I am simply stating that any card or piece of paper cannot
> guarantee that a given meteorite is real.
>
> Best regards,
>
> MikeG
>
> PS - FWIW, I collect specimen cards.? I have a 3-ring binder full of
> them, hundreds of them from almost every dealer on the planet.? :)
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>
> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/23/12, John higgins <geohiggins at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Hi Mike, Adam, and List,
>> Interesting opinions.
>>
>> You guys touched on a major issue in the Meteorite Community, and there
>> are
>> parts of your statements I don't agree with. I would really like to share
>> how I feel about the subject.
>>
>> First of all Mike you said,
>>
>> " I thought this was laughable for obvious
>> reasons and a man who runs an auction house should know that 99% of
>> COA's are not worth the paper they are printed on.? I can go outside,
>> grab a rock from my driveway, and print up an official-looking COA for
>> it."
>>
>> Mike with all due respect, I don't agree with this. Why would you try to
>> knock a dealers reputation? For example a meteorite sold by Mike Farmer or
>> Greg Hupe is worth more than a meteorite that is sold without any
>> provenance
>> or COA.
>>
>> For example lets say unknown dealer X is selling a Howardite, and well
>> known
>> dealer Y is selling the same Howardite. Who do you think is going to
>> realize
>> a higher price? The well know dealer.
>>
>> Now if that meteorite losses it's COA from the dealer who sold it, what
>> happens? Usually the meteorite immediately looses value, how can you
>> explain
>> this if the COA is not worth the paper it's printed on?
>>
>> For example a meteorite said to be from from the Bob Hagg collection
>> without
>> Bob's paperwork has a much lower value than a meteorite from the Bob Hagg
>> collection with his COA right?
>>
>> So please extrapolate exactly what you mean and how you come to this
>> conclusion. I strongly disagree with your opinion. Much of the value in
>> meteorites is locked up in the provenance and not the meteorite itself in
>> my
>> opinion.
>>
>> I think what is much too overlooked is that a meteorite dealers reputation
>> is the most important factor in meteorite prices. That includes the
>> following they create, the friends they make, impressions that collectors
>> get all translate into value and that it why most collectors demand
>> individual COA's be issued with each meteorite sold. I think this makes a
>> lot of sense because the process it takes to build a good reputation takes
>> years. The piece of paper adds value. Of course a paper from Hagg is worth
>> more than a COA from Joe Schmo. But to say the paper has no value is the
>> most insane thing I ever heard. How else would you know if your buying
>> pedigree meteorites from dealers who stand for integrity, honor and strive
>> to provide the customer the best experience. A lot of new comers think
>> that
>> the value is in the meteorite itself, and then when they try to sell them,
>> they are greatly let down and wonder why their meteorites don't fetch the
>> same price that
>>? the other more well known dealers get all day long. Because it comes down
>> to more than just the meteorite itself and taking it for face value. You
>> fail to consider the amount of friends the advanced dealers had made over
>> the years, the networking they have done and the awareness they have
>> created
>> about their meteorite and the way they are presented. And most importantly
>> the way they make their customers feel is the most important factor to me.
>>
>> Is it just a roughly cut rock, sloppily thrown in a bag with a sharpie
>> marking? OR IS IT A EXPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER? The experience adds
>> value,
>> making the customer feel good is an integral part of any business, even
>> meteorite dealing. The COA and provenance conveys that feeling to the
>> customer. It makes them say WOW! I can't wait to see what this dealer has
>> to
>> offer me next. It gives them something to hold onto other than just the
>> meteorite itself. Sure you can put on narrow vision goggles and only focus
>> on the meteorite itself, throwing everything else away and assigning
>> absolutely no value as to how the meteorite ended up where it is, but I
>> don't think that's a very scientific approach. It's all part of the story
>> and how you ended up with the specimen is a big part of meteorites and
>> collecting.
>>
>> I for one get very depressed when I buy a meteorite on eBay and it comes
>> with no card! What happens if I lose the bag it's in or the marking wears
>> off? what happens to the specimen, the value drops to 0. Cant sell it
>> because you don't know what it is. And if you ever do want to sell it, how
>> can you prove where it came from. The COA answers a lot of those
>> questions,
>> sure you can explain to kingdom come what it is, but it wont prove the
>> origin for the 99% of meteorite collectors who demand provenance, and I
>> don't blame them one bit. The value to any assigned meteorite is less
>> without the papers.
>>
>> Now I will admit, it can all come down to perspective, when your dealing
>> with small micro fragments, I sympathize with your view Mike, it's not
>> worth
>> the time or the expense to make a COA, but you can always give something,
>> even a little piece of paper I hope, to say it came from you and what it
>> is.
>> Maybe comparing a micro to a macro is useless and it's like comparing
>> Apples
>> to Oranges... Two totally different perspectives that are neither right or
>> wrong just are what they are, each of us our own independent opinions.
>>
>> Adam you said,
>>
>> " A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>>? bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>>? some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves."
>>
>> Adam, with all due respect, I don't understand this statement, where do
>> you
>> and your COA's fit into the picture? Don't you print the COA and
>> describe/grade the meteorites you sell and classify? Sounds like you would
>> be hesitant to buy meteorites from yourself? I think comparing baseball
>> cards and antiques that hold cultural value to meteorites that hold both
>> cultural and scientific value, is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
>>
>> To Everyone,
>> I would like to go one step further, I urge the meteorite community at
>> large
>> to consider standardizing COA's and provenance. Each dealer should still
>> have his/her own unique style but there should be a simple standardized
>> field of data provided for each specimen. This will promote the science of
>> studying them, adding value to all of our collections in the future.
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to hear my opinion, Have a Great Day!
>> Best Regards,
>> John Higgins
>> www.outerspacerocks.com
>> IMCA # 9822
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> To: Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Adam <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Auction Kings meteorite - $2000 SikhoteAlin
>>
>> Hi Adam and List,
>>
>> Some good points there.
>>
>> About COA's - even if a COA comes from a trusted grading or
>> certification firm, the value in the COA is not the COA itself, it is
>> the name of the grading or certification service on it that is known
>> to collectors of that particular type of collectible.? If you buy a
>> rare collectible and the COA says "Confirmed authentic by Acme
>> Certification Services, Walla Walla Washington, Serial number
>> #123456", then the value of the certificate is that the buyer or
>> potential buyer can contact Acme Services, have them check their
>> database and confirm that the item in question is indeed genuine.
>> However, anyone can print a piece of paper that looks like it came
>> from Acme Certification Services and the ruse will only be exposed if
>> the buyer follows up on the info printed on the COA.???The COA itself
>> is worthless.
>>
>> In the world of meteorites, there is no certification service or
>> central authority that can be relied upon to authenticate meteorites.
>> Without an authoritative body backing a COA, it's just a pretty piece
>> of paper.
>>
>> Otherwise, I agree 100% with the other things you said.? :)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>>
>> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/23/12, Adam Hupe <raremeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> A lot of buyers judge the price of collectable items from eBay.? EBay is
>>> not known for fetching top dollar, especially on collectables.? A solid
>>> auction house will almost always fetch more than what would be realized
>>> on eBay.? The problem with many auction houses is that their commissions
>>> are
>>> out of line, some charging in excess of 40%! Then some fleece the
>>> buyers with expensive shipping and handling fees.
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, there are a few great auction companies out there, I
>>> have used some of them.? One problem I encountered is that if the item
>>> doesn't sell or the buyer can't pay for the item after bidding on it,
>>> then the seller can be out of some serious money including catalog and
>>> no-sell fees.? They need to do a better job of vetting their bidders!
>>>
>>> A lot of dealers don't bother with middle men anymore since they can get
>>> wholesale prices right off of eBay.? Some specialty shops get most of
>>> there product from eBay, mark it up considerably and put it on their
>>> shelves. The problem is that a lot the collectable items offered on eBay
>>> have no expertise behind them and are accidentally or purposely
>>> misrepresented.
>>>
>>> There are reputable independent companies that can authenticate and paper
>>> items so COAs? are important to me.? I wouldn't purchase a valuable
>>> coin, baseball card or any other collectable without first seeing that
>>> it has been papered through an independent grading and certificate
>>> service.? A properly papered item will almost always bring in the big
>>> bucks in an auction house whereas it may not do so well on eBay where
>>> some dealers tend to print their own COAs and grade items themselves.
>>>
>>> Kind Regards and Happy Collecting,
>>>
>>> Adam
>>> ______________________________________________
>>>
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