[meteorite-list] Hammer fall term

From: dorifry <dorifry_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:38:00 -0400
Message-ID: <482BA261F3F44684B9E7B1A006F84458_at_DoriPC>

Carl,

I agree, Fall and Find are ridiculous terms. I'm get tired of explaining the
difference to non-meteorite people. The confusion could be cleared up by
adding the modifying adjective Observed to the word Fall.
Since all meteorites are both Falls and Finds (to the uninitiated), why not
just call them Observed Falls and Falls? Makes sense to me!

Phil Whitmer
Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum

(Sorry for the double post, I accidentally hit send)


----- Original Message -----
From: <cdtucson at cox.net>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; "Regine P."
<fips_bruno at yahoo.de>; "MikeG" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term


> Regine, MikeG,
> I hate to beat a dead horse but,....
> There actually could be such a thing as a "Hammer Fall".
> Take Carancas for example;
> This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and
> killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater.
> This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was
> one huge stone that crashed and exploded.
> So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well?
> Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that
> exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists.
> There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have
> evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion
> crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully
> crusted stones come from?
> This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are "Hammer Stones".
> However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully
> crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they
> would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the
> collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and
> that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did
> fall.
> As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined "Hammer". He could just of
> easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result.
> Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his
> had while hitting something.
>
> The other really funny term is the use of the word "Fall" at all.
> I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all
> meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have
> gotten here?
> So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain
> that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are
> nuts. The word " fresh fall" would make more sense but, most of the time
> the "Fresh" is left out. Even when a stone is called a "fresh Fall"
> science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or
> minutes so even then... If you "find" a stone. How do you really know when
> it "fell". You did find a "fall" but was it "fresh"? Or does it just look
> "fresh"?
> Too Funny.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Carl
> meteoritemax
>
>
> --
> Cheers
>
> ---- "Regine P." <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to
>> "hammer falls" on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things
>> related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a
>> small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting
>> interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject
>> and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New
>> Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage.
>> I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related
>> and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New
>> Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the
>> meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these
>> things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end
>> this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what
>> the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing
>> the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But
>> why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to
>> cash in is a mystery to me.
>>
>> Enough said, Best wishes,
>>
>> Regine
>>
>>
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > Von: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >An: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
>> >CC: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> >Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012
>> >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
>> >
>> >Hi Regine,
>> >
>> >I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs)
>> >should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available
>> >that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also
>> >think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think
>> >everyone who uses the term "hammer fall" is engaging in marketing or
>> >trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do
>> >that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But
>> >the term "hammer fall" probably isn't going away, and if it does, it
>> >will be replaced by another term that means the same thing.
>> >
>> >And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does
>> >bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money
>> >on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the
>> >most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework.
>> >Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >
>> >MikeG
>> >
>> >--
>> >-----------------------------------------------------------
>> >Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>> >
>> >Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> >Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> >RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> >-----------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >On 6/12/12, Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> >> But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to
>> >> purchase the
>> >> crumbs because the thing fell in his town?
>> >> Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to
>> >> new
>> >> collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers, Regine
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
>> >>> Von: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >>> An: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
>> >>> CC: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> >>> Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012
>> >>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Regine,
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No
>> >>> meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely
>> >>> because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a
>> >>> higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of
>> >>> collecting meteorites.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let me clarify a few of the points you raised :
>> >>>
>> >>> " agree with the "hammer fall" term being misleading, and so far
>> >>> haven't met
>> >>>> anyone who is very fond of it
>> >>>> except those who actually see it as a market opportunity."
>> >>>
>> >>> I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and
>> >>> have no financial interest in using the term "hammer fall". Before I
>> >>> became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I
>> >>> still use it because of what it means to me, and some other
>> >>> collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for
>> >>> marketing purposes - I would not argue against that.
>> >>>
>> >>> "On the flip
>> >>>> side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The
>> >>>> Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay
>> >>>> auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which
>> >>>> hit
>> >>>> Mrs. Hodges "
>> >>>
>> >>> I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a
>> >>> meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of
>> >>> terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the
>> >>> law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as
>> >>> "actors" - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he
>> >>> pretending to be one?
>> >>>
>> >>> " "Hammer fall" on the other hand is simply a sales term which
>> >>>> does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely
>> >>>> overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a
>> >>>> meteorite
>> >>>> shower."
>> >>>
>> >>> I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way.
>> >>>
>> >>> " I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term
>> >>> "L'Aigle
>> >>>> hammer fall", because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> arm. "
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a "historical fall" if one
>> >>> must
>> >>> label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far
>> >>> beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of
>> >>> course, it's still a "hammer fall" to some collectors, but I think
>> >>> most hammer-heads would agree that L'Aigle is a fall of great
>> >>> historical importance first, and a "hammer fall" in the least.
>> >>>
>> >>> " A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall
>> >>>> because one of the rocks struck a garage door? "
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed not. Sutter's Mill is not defined as a hammer, and never
>> >>> should be. But, to some collectors, the stone that struck Officer
>> >>> Matin's garage has additional value because it did strike a mandmade
>> >>> construct. Of course, this additional value is entirely secondary to
>> >>> the real value of the fall, which is scientific first, cultural
>> >>> second, and hammer a distant third (if at all).
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree completely with your sentiment here. But to say that a
>> >>> segment of the collector community is engaging solely in shameless
>> >>> and
>> >>> misleading marketing because we choose to use a certain term to
>> >>> describe a fall is not true. We can strike the term "hammer fall"
>> >>> from human memory forever, and that does not change the fact that a
>> >>> Sutter's Mill stone struck a garage, or a Park Forest stone
>> >>> penetrated
>> >>> a house. Somebody will come along and create another term to
>> >>> delineate such falls from a fall like Tamdakt that fell in a remote
>> >>> area. That new term may or may not sound like "hammer fall", but the
>> >>> meaning will be the same. And people would then argue over the
>> >>> semantics of it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> MikeG
>> >>> --
>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>> >>>
>> >>> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> >>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> >>> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 6/12/12, Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> >>>> Sorry to come up with the subject
>> >>>> matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and
>> >>>> would like to add my two cents on it this time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree with the "hammer fall" term being misleading, and so far
>> >>> haven't met
>> >>>> anyone who is very fond of it
>> >>>> except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the
>> >>>> flip
>> >>>> side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The
>> >>>> Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay
>> >>>> auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which
>> >>>> hit
>> >>>> Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius
>> >>>> McKinney,
>> >>>> which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm
>> >>>> concerned,
>> >>>> deserves more attention than a footnote).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm quite keen on the stories
>> >>>> behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out
>> >>>> there
>> >>>> is hitting something random and creates a connection between the
>> >>>> sublime
>> >>>>
>> >>> and
>> >>>> the mundane. "Hammer fall" on the other hand is simply a sales
>> >>> term which
>> >>>> does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely
>> >>>> overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a
>> >>>> meteorite
>> >>>> shower. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term
>> >>> "L'Aigle
>> >>>> hammer fall", because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> arm. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important
>> >>>> fall
>> >>>> because one of the rocks struck a garage door? I feel these falls
>> >>>> deserve different attributes in their headline, something which is
>> >>>> perhaps attributable to all or most of the specimens of the fall,
>> >>>> such
>> >>>> as the historic significance, the classification, characteristics or
>> >>>> man
>> >>>> hours included in searching for the pieces in the strewn field. As
>> >>>> mentioned before, I'm not referring to the actual stone which hit
>> >>>> something, as the
>> >>>> designation is significant in identifying the rock as being the
>> >>>> single
>> >>>> piece falling on something man made.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Regine
>> >>>> ______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Visit the Archives at
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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Received on Thu 14 Jun 2012 10:38:00 AM PDT