[meteorite-list] Hammer fall term

From: dorifry <dorifry_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:30:26 -0400
Message-ID: <0F5978399D4A402BAC688549776AB070_at_DoriPC>

----- Original Message -----
From: <cdtucson at cox.net>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; "Regine P."
<fips_bruno at yahoo.de>; "MikeG" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term


> Regine, MikeG,
> I hate to beat a dead horse but,....
> There actually could be such a thing as a "Hammer Fall".
> Take Carancas for example;
> This fall was not only observed but, it hit a man made water well and
> killed a couple of animals while excavating a crater.
> This fall is generally accepted as a Hammer Fall because we believe it was
> one huge stone that crashed and exploded.
> So, then the question is; Is this a hammer stone as well?
> Of coarse it is. That is IF it was indeed caused by one single stone that
> exploded on impact. This is a fact that is in dispute amongst Scientists.
> There may have been a swarm of stones that hit at once. We do have
> evidence of this in stones that were found that were nearly fully fusion
> crusted. Had it been just one single stone where did the nearly fully
> crusted stones come from?
> This lends doubt that in fact all of the stones are "Hammer Stones".
> However, from a sales standpoint. Having one of these ultra rare fully
> crusted stones would not be such a bad thing to have. I would think they
> would be far more rare and therefore far more valuable to both the
> collector (museum) or Scientist for the simple reason of aesthetics and
> that it does make for an interesting argument about how many stones did
> fall.
> As for the use of the word Michael Blood coined "Hammer". He could just of
> easily have used any number of other words to describe this end result.
> Swatter, clapper, striker or anything else one does with an object in his
> had while hitting something.
>
> The other really funny term is the use of the word "Fall" at all.
> I mean try to explain that to a newby? I mean after all, Aren't all
> meteorites Falls in the true sense of the word. How else could they have
> gotten here?
> So, the use of this term necessitates an explanation. You have to explain
> that not all meteorites are falls. A newby would look at you like you are
> nuts. The word " fresh fall" would make more sense but, most of the time
> the "Fresh" is left out. Even when a stone is called a "fresh Fall"
> science can only determine the time it fell within years not hour or
> minutes so even then... If you "find" a stone. How do you really know when
> it "fell". You did find a "fall" but was it "fresh"? Or does it just look
> "fresh"?
> Too Funny.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Carl
> meteoritemax
>
>
> --
> Cheers
>
> ---- "Regine P." <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> Well, I'm referring to an overall suspicious odour when it comes to
>> "hammer falls" on sales pages. It is so imprecise - as many other things
>> related to it. What comes to my mind right now is that I downloaded a
>> small jpg once from a website on hammers when I started getting
>> interested in the historic side of meteorites. I was new to the subject
>> and took the picture as a genuine photograph of a man from the New
>> Concord area sitting on a dead colt which seemed to be collateral damage.
>> I researched my arse off only to find out that the photo is not related
>> and the incident most likely never happened. The unreliability of the New
>> Concord horse kill has been discussed several times on the list in the
>> meantime, yet the picture is still on the website. I hear you say these
>> things are completely unrelated, and perhaps they are. And in the end
>> this might all be peanuts even. Actually, right now, I ask myself what
>> the heck I'm doing here. I actually enjoy doing
>> the detective work on which account is true and which is doubtful! But
>> why anyone actively wants to play a part in the confusion other than to
>> cash in is a mystery to me.
>>
>> Enough said, Best wishes,
>>
>> Regine
>>
>>
>>
>> >________________________________
>> > Von: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >An: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
>> >CC: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> >Gesendet: 20:20 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012
>> >Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
>> >
>> >Hi Regine,
>> >
>> >I can't argue that point. I can only say that we (as meteorite buffs)
>> >should do our best to educate the newbies, or make resources available
>> >that will educate the newbies. I think many of us do that. I also
>> >think we could do better if we really tried. But I don't think
>> >everyone who uses the term "hammer fall" is engaging in marketing or
>> >trying to mislead people for financial gain. Maybe some dealers do
>> >that. If they do, I don't agree with that and they should stop. But
>> >the term "hammer fall" probably isn't going away, and if it does, it
>> >will be replaced by another term that means the same thing.
>> >
>> >And we can't excuse people for making rash purchases. The buyer does
>> >bear some responsibility to educate themselves before spending money
>> >on a meteorite (or anything). I guess this gets back to some of the
>> >most fundamental lessons of collecting things. Do one's homework.
>> >Buyer beware. Know your seller. Check references (or feedback). :)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >
>> >MikeG
>> >
>> >--
>> >-----------------------------------------------------------
>> >Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>> >
>> >Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> >Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> >RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> >-----------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> >
>> >On 6/12/12, Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> >> But what if said police chief won the lottery and would like to
>> >> purchase the
>> >> crumbs because the thing fell in his town?
>> >> Of course the term is not that confusing to meteorite buffs, but to
>> >> new
>> >> collectors or people who just want to own the one rock from space.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers, Regine
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Urspr?ngliche Message -----
>> >>> Von: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
>> >>> An: Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de>
>> >>> CC: Meteorite List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> >>> Gesendet: 19:27 Dienstag, 12.Juni 2012
>> >>> Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Hammer fall term
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Regine,
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree in principle with what you are saying here, I really do. No
>> >>> meteorite fall should ever be pigeon-holed or categorized solely
>> >>> because a stone struck something, and therefore that stone has a
>> >>> higher financial value. That completely defeats the purpose of
>> >>> collecting meteorites.
>> >>>
>> >>> Let me clarify a few of the points you raised :
>> >>>
>> >>> " agree with the "hammer fall" term being misleading, and so far
>> >>> haven't met
>> >>>> anyone who is very fond of it
>> >>>> except those who actually see it as a market opportunity."
>> >>>
>> >>> I know of several collectors who use it, and they are not dealers and
>> >>> have no financial interest in using the term "hammer fall". Before I
>> >>> became a dealer, I was using it to describe my personal specimens. I
>> >>> still use it because of what it means to me, and some other
>> >>> collectors, not because it is marketing. Maybe others use it for
>> >>> marketing purposes - I would not argue against that.
>> >>>
>> >>> "On the flip
>> >>>> side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The
>> >>>> Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay
>> >>>> auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which
>> >>>> hit
>> >>>> Mrs. Hodges "
>> >>>
>> >>> I would expect our dear police chief to be confused - he is not a
>> >>> meteorite collector, he is a policeman. Police officers use lots of
>> >>> terminology that is confusing to people who are not a part of the
>> >>> law-enforcement community. Criminals are often referred to as
>> >>> "actors" - that is confusing to me. Is a man a bank robber, or is he
>> >>> pretending to be one?
>> >>>
>> >>> " "Hammer fall" on the other hand is simply a sales term which
>> >>>> does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely
>> >>>> overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a
>> >>>> meteorite
>> >>>> shower."
>> >>>
>> >>> I suppose it could, for some people. I don't see it that way.
>> >>>
>> >>> " I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term
>> >>> "L'Aigle
>> >>>> hammer fall", because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> arm. "
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree 100%. In my mind, L'Aigle is a "historical fall" if one
>> >>> must
>> >>> label it. L'Aigle will always have supreme importance that goes far
>> >>> beyond anything (or person) that may have been struck by a stone. Of
>> >>> course, it's still a "hammer fall" to some collectors, but I think
>> >>> most hammer-heads would agree that L'Aigle is a fall of great
>> >>> historical importance first, and a "hammer fall" in the least.
>> >>>
>> >>> " A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important fall
>> >>>> because one of the rocks struck a garage door? "
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed not. Sutter's Mill is not defined as a hammer, and never
>> >>> should be. But, to some collectors, the stone that struck Officer
>> >>> Matin's garage has additional value because it did strike a mandmade
>> >>> construct. Of course, this additional value is entirely secondary to
>> >>> the real value of the fall, which is scientific first, cultural
>> >>> second, and hammer a distant third (if at all).
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree completely with your sentiment here. But to say that a
>> >>> segment of the collector community is engaging solely in shameless
>> >>> and
>> >>> misleading marketing because we choose to use a certain term to
>> >>> describe a fall is not true. We can strike the term "hammer fall"
>> >>> from human memory forever, and that does not change the fact that a
>> >>> Sutter's Mill stone struck a garage, or a Park Forest stone
>> >>> penetrated
>> >>> a house. Somebody will come along and create another term to
>> >>> delineate such falls from a fall like Tamdakt that fell in a remote
>> >>> area. That new term may or may not sound like "hammer fall", but the
>> >>> meaning will be the same. And people would then argue over the
>> >>> semantics of it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Best regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> MikeG
>> >>> --
>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - MikeG
>> >>>
>> >>> Web: http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone
>> >>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/GalacticStone
>> >>> RSS: http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> >>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On 6/12/12, Regine P. <fips_bruno at yahoo.de> wrote:
>> >>>> Sorry to come up with the subject
>> >>>> matter again, but I keep thinking about this every now and then and
>> >>>> would like to add my two cents on it this time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree with the "hammer fall" term being misleading, and so far
>> >>> haven't met
>> >>>> anyone who is very fond of it
>> >>>> except those who actually see it as a market opportunity. On the
>> >>>> flip
>> >>>> side I have met a few who were seriously confused by the term: The
>> >>>> Sylacauga police chief for example, who sent me a link to an Ebay
>> >>>> auction, thinking the speck pictured was a piece of the rock which
>> >>>> hit
>> >>>> Mrs. Hodges (it was instead part of the one found by Julius
>> >>>> McKinney,
>> >>>> which has an interesting story by itself and, as far as I'm
>> >>>> concerned,
>> >>>> deserves more attention than a footnote).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I'm quite keen on the stories
>> >>>> behind hammer stones and the idea that something ancient from out
>> >>>> there
>> >>>> is hitting something random and creates a connection between the
>> >>>> sublime
>> >>>>
>> >>> and
>> >>>> the mundane. "Hammer fall" on the other hand is simply a sales
>> >>> term which
>> >>>> does the opposite of creating historical awareness: It completely
>> >>>> overshadows all the other aspects (historical or other) of a
>> >>>> meteorite
>> >>>> shower. I'd find it fairly irritating if anyone used the term
>> >>> "L'Aigle
>> >>>> hammer fall", because one of the pieces (presumably) hit a man on
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> arm. A more recent example is Sutter's Mill - is it an important
>> >>>> fall
>> >>>> because one of the rocks struck a garage door? I feel these falls
>> >>>> deserve different attributes in their headline, something which is
>> >>>> perhaps attributable to all or most of the specimens of the fall,
>> >>>> such
>> >>>> as the historic significance, the classification, characteristics or
>> >>>> man
>> >>>> hours included in searching for the pieces in the strewn field. As
>> >>>> mentioned before, I'm not referring to the actual stone which hit
>> >>>> something, as the
>> >>>> designation is significant in identifying the rock as being the
>> >>>> single
>> >>>> piece falling on something man made.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Regine
>> >>>> ______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Visit the Archives at
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>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
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Received on Thu 14 Jun 2012 10:30:26 AM PDT