[meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades

From: Michael Gilmer <*meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:48:23 -0400 Message-ID: <CAKBPJW-33P39oO=cEjJuTKCBLJL06bG3jHpwbhs3HGEj9bJSbg_at_mail.gmail.com> · meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com

-- 
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Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
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On 10/22/11, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> wrote:
> "never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a
> bazillion  made of Damascus steel."
>
> Hi Darryl and Phil,
>
> That's not entirely accurate, either.  The bizillion are made of
> laminated (pattern-welded) steel.  The lamination give that layered
> look to it.
>
> The kicker is that the Kris blades really are traditionally supposed to
> be made from a laminated sheets of meteoritic iron and other irons,
> that get deformed and give that patterned look - almost always curved
> unlike unaltered Widmanstatten/Thompson figures and similar to the
> current crop of faux Damascus blades being marketed.
>
> So it is more accurate to say (though there are probably still some
> nit-picks):
>
> "Never once seen a meteoritic iron Damascus Blade, but I've seen about
> a bazillion Kris blades that were claimed to be made of Damascus steel."
>
> The inconsistency is only marketing hype in the knife industry started
> by a single knifemaker who just wanted to drum up business with tall
> claims in very recent times.  So, the rest of the knifemakers joining
> the bandwagon for more profits from a simple steel lamination process
> that was never high on the difficulty level nor legendary.  As a matter
> of fact, it was the third time in history the term Damascus was
> appropriated.  The second time was 100 years ago, when it became
> synonymous with "Laminated" for making gun barrels that were real crap
> and they went out of business.
>
> The secretive, mystical aspect of the Damascus steel blades are derived
> in the Christian countries from the sharpness and hardness that they
> held and vanquished many European warriors during the "Crusades".  The
> process was lost completely several hundred years ago and probably has
> still not been rediscovered because other modern materials are probably
> equally good or better (a lot has changed in steelmaking since the iron
> age).
>
> So unless you've been to a museum with ancient or old historical Arabic
> or Persian relics, you've probably never seen an authentic Damascus
> blade, except the Kris blade-like process that one clever marketeer
> invented forty years ago.  There is nothing about the millenium and a
> half run of Damascus steel that would suggest it used meteoritic iron,
> which actually was probably an inferior iron for some true Damascus
> fabrication processes.
>
> As far as we know today from scientific analysis, the secret of
> Damascus steel depended on the superior Vanadium containing iron
> nuggets from India, (Today there are a wide range of excellent Vanadium
> steels, but not during the Crusades).  Modern analytical techniques
> show the secret has nothing to do with laminations,l but rather that
> the old true Damascus process had some excellent metalurgy going on:
> Carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires were formed and held a
> sharpening like no peer of its age.
>
> ...and that, is an authentic Damascus steel knife ... no meteorites
> need apply ... and, from a modern point of view, think about the
> variation in iron meteorite composition.  Damascus was by nature
> carefully controlled and swapping out raw materials wouold probably not
> be tolerated for an excellent final product.  The mimicked Damascus
> pattern caused by the lamination in the current crop of knives has
> nothing to do with meteorites not anything to do with the properties
> that made Damascus steel stand above its peers at the time.  It's
> special, seemingly mystical "edge" it had at the time, was cause by the
> carefully selected and controlled raw materials and the forging process
> they underwent, creating on the molecular level alternaing
> carbide/nanotube tips.  This definitely is not part of the modern crop
> of Damascus pattern mimicks.
>
> Ah, and the first time Damascus steel was appropriated to name a modern
> proces was by the blacksmith of Jim Bowie of the famed "Bowie knife"
> who perished in the defense of the Alamo at the hands of Mexicans.
> Bowie had designed his knife but the clever blacksmith, from New
> Jersey, forged it, which was part of its specialty.  I posted a movie
> about 5-8 years ago here dealing with this subject and the movie.  The
> movie made the error of saying he rediscovered the Damascus process
> (which was reputed to be at the time) and that it was made of the
> rediscovered Damascus steel process.  The needed to pick one or the
> other.  I have not seen meteorites being called the source of the Bowie
> knife steel from any other place but who jknows when it comes to
> legends...
>
> Kindest wishes
> Doug
>
>
>
> truen as far as is known
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dorifry <dorifry at embarqmail.com>
> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
>
>
> I've never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a
> bazillion made of Damascus steel. Damascus sort of looks like a
> Widmansttaten pattern if you didn't know any better.
>
> Phil Whitmer
> Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com>
> To: "Michael Gilmer" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
>
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> That's not quite accurate.  Many are made of steel, Damascus steel,
> etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen a couple of these for sale on eBay in the past.  They were
>>> not exactly like the one's in Rob's photos, but they were similar.
>>> (if I recall correctly)
>>>
>>> Rob, if you have physical access to the blades in questions, a quick
>>> nickel test should rule in/out a meteoritic origin.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> MikeG
>>> --
>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
>>>
>>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>> Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
>>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
>>>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/22/11, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Be very, very careful.
>>>>
>>>> The stories associated with most krises for sale in Indonesia are
>>>> apocryphal.  I've heard more fantastic stories---truly extraordinary
>>>> tales---before the price drops precipitously during the course of
>>>> negotiations.
>>>>
>>>> The kris is a very important cultural symbol and there are so many
>>>> legends
>>>> attached to this weapon.  My favorite?  It was widely believed a
> kris
>>>> would,
>>>> on its own, slide out of its sheath and fly through the sky to
> strike
>>>> the
>>>> enemies of its owner.
>>>>
>>>> Meteoritic iron?  I've heard this a lot----far too often, in
> fact---and
>>>> I
>>>> would be extremely suspicious.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best / darryl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Rob Wesel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a friend vacationing who ran across an antique store
> selling
>>>>> three
>>>>> Indonesian blades claiming to be made of "meteoric iron". While I
> know
>>>>> that if you are going to find a meteorite blade it's gonna be
>>>>> Indonesian
>>>>> or Mike Miller's, I  know very little about what they should look
> like.
>>>>> If
>>>>> the list holds any experts please have a look and weigh in.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/blades.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Rob Wesel
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>> Nakhla Dog Meteorites
>>>>> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
>>>>> www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites
>>>>> www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel
>>>>> ------------------
>>>>> We are the music makers...
>>>>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>>>>> Willy Wonka, 1971
>>>>>
>>>>>
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