[meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades

From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:05:50 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <8CE5F2646A2A1D9-176C-2BF69_at_webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>

"never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a
bazillion made of Damascus steel."

Hi Darryl and Phil,

That's not entirely accurate, either. The bizillion are made of
laminated (pattern-welded) steel. The lamination give that layered
look to it.

The kicker is that the Kris blades really are traditionally supposed to
be made from a laminated sheets of meteoritic iron and other irons,
that get deformed and give that patterned look - almost always curved
unlike unaltered Widmanstatten/Thompson figures and similar to the
current crop of faux Damascus blades being marketed.

So it is more accurate to say (though there are probably still some
nit-picks):

"Never once seen a meteoritic iron Damascus Blade, but I've seen about
a bazillion Kris blades that were claimed to be made of Damascus steel."

The inconsistency is only marketing hype in the knife industry started
by a single knifemaker who just wanted to drum up business with tall
claims in very recent times. So, the rest of the knifemakers joining
the bandwagon for more profits from a simple steel lamination process
that was never high on the difficulty level nor legendary. As a matter
of fact, it was the third time in history the term Damascus was
appropriated. The second time was 100 years ago, when it became
synonymous with "Laminated" for making gun barrels that were real crap
and they went out of business.

The secretive, mystical aspect of the Damascus steel blades are derived
in the Christian countries from the sharpness and hardness that they
held and vanquished many European warriors during the "Crusades". The
process was lost completely several hundred years ago and probably has
still not been rediscovered because other modern materials are probably
equally good or better (a lot has changed in steelmaking since the iron
age).

So unless you've been to a museum with ancient or old historical Arabic
or Persian relics, you've probably never seen an authentic Damascus
blade, except the Kris blade-like process that one clever marketeer
invented forty years ago. There is nothing about the millenium and a
half run of Damascus steel that would suggest it used meteoritic iron,
which actually was probably an inferior iron for some true Damascus
fabrication processes.

As far as we know today from scientific analysis, the secret of
Damascus steel depended on the superior Vanadium containing iron
nuggets from India, (Today there are a wide range of excellent Vanadium
steels, but not during the Crusades). Modern analytical techniques
show the secret has nothing to do with laminations,l but rather that
the old true Damascus process had some excellent metalurgy going on:
Carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires were formed and held a
sharpening like no peer of its age.

...and that, is an authentic Damascus steel knife ... no meteorites
need apply ... and, from a modern point of view, think about the
variation in iron meteorite composition. Damascus was by nature
carefully controlled and swapping out raw materials wouold probably not
be tolerated for an excellent final product. The mimicked Damascus
pattern caused by the lamination in the current crop of knives has
nothing to do with meteorites not anything to do with the properties
that made Damascus steel stand above its peers at the time. It's
special, seemingly mystical "edge" it had at the time, was cause by the
carefully selected and controlled raw materials and the forging process
they underwent, creating on the molecular level alternaing
carbide/nanotube tips. This definitely is not part of the modern crop
of Damascus pattern mimicks.

Ah, and the first time Damascus steel was appropriated to name a modern
proces was by the blacksmith of Jim Bowie of the famed "Bowie knife"
who perished in the defense of the Alamo at the hands of Mexicans.
Bowie had designed his knife but the clever blacksmith, from New
Jersey, forged it, which was part of its specialty. I posted a movie
about 5-8 years ago here dealing with this subject and the movie. The
movie made the error of saying he rediscovered the Damascus process
(which was reputed to be at the time) and that it was made of the
rediscovered Damascus steel process. The needed to pick one or the
other. I have not seen meteorites being called the source of the Bowie
knife steel from any other place but who jknows when it comes to
legends...

Kindest wishes
Doug



truen as far as is known


-----Original Message-----
From: dorifry <dorifry at embarqmail.com>
To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades


I've never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a
bazillion made of Damascus steel. Damascus sort of looks like a
Widmansttaten pattern if you didn't know any better.

Phil Whitmer
Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com>
To: "Michael Gilmer" <meteoritemike at gmail.com>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades


>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> That's not quite accurate. Many are made of steel, Damascus steel,
etc.
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote:
>
>> I've seen a couple of these for sale on eBay in the past. They were
>> not exactly like the one's in Rob's photos, but they were similar.
>> (if I recall correctly)
>>
>> Rob, if you have physical access to the blades in questions, a quick
>> nickel test should rule in/out a meteoritic origin.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> MikeG
>> --
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
>>
>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>> Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
>>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
>>
>>
>> On 10/22/11, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Be very, very careful.
>>>
>>> The stories associated with most krises for sale in Indonesia are
>>> apocryphal. I've heard more fantastic stories---truly extraordinary
>>> tales---before the price drops precipitously during the course of
>>> negotiations.
>>>
>>> The kris is a very important cultural symbol and there are so many
>>> legends
>>> attached to this weapon. My favorite? It was widely believed a
kris
>>> would,
>>> on its own, slide out of its sheath and fly through the sky to
strike
>>> the
>>> enemies of its owner.
>>>
>>> Meteoritic iron? I've heard this a lot----far too often, in
fact---and
>>> I
>>> would be extremely suspicious.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best / darryl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Rob Wesel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello all
>>>>
>>>> I have a friend vacationing who ran across an antique store
selling
>>>> three
>>>> Indonesian blades claiming to be made of "meteoric iron". While I
know
>>>> that if you are going to find a meteorite blade it's gonna be
>>>> Indonesian
>>>> or Mike Miller's, I know very little about what they should look
like.
>>>> If
>>>> the list holds any experts please have a look and weigh in.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/blades.htm
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Rob Wesel
>>>> ------------------
>>>> Nakhla Dog Meteorites
>>>> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com
>>>> www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites
>>>> www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel
>>>> ------------------
>>>> We are the music makers...
>>>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
>>>> Willy Wonka, 1971
>>>>
>>>>
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>
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Received on Sat 22 Oct 2011 07:05:50 PM PDT