[meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss

From: Mike Hankey <mike.hankey_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:22:45 -0400
Message-ID: <BF753206-E3CA-4B0E-8AEA-A1D76E13315E_at_gmail.com>

Pics of the find in situ with gps coords should settle this.




On May 8, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Joe Kerchner <skyrockmeteorites at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think greg should get booted or at least suspended from here for spreading made up BS on here that could ruin my reputation. This is NOT RIGHT. I am so very very POed right now. I cant even believe Im reading this crap. Why did you make this up, THEN POST IT. Cmon grag. I know we never got along, but this?
> Best Wishes,
> Joe Kerchner
> http://illinoismeteorites.com
> http://skyrockcafe.com
>
>
> --- On Sun, 5/8/11, Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>> To: "Greg Catterton" <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com>, "Shawn Alan" <photophlow at yahoo.com>, jasonutas at gmail.com, "Linton Rohr" <lintonius at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 6:37 AM
>> Greg, Shawn, Dirk, Jason and List,
>>
>> Since seeking expertise in hunting and purchasing
>> meteorites from persons I met through this List, I have been
>> lied to, and cheated, more than a few times. I must be fair
>> and mention I've also made some really great friendships.
>> Most of my bad experiences with Listees has been caused by
>> my own naivet?' and an innate character fault I
>> have.....and that is I want to believe everything that is
>> said to me.
>>
>> I bought a few grams of prepared Mifflin from Joe not
>> knowing it was stolen.
>>
>> This latest scandal is heart breaking. I don't want
>> anything to do with stolen meteorites. Greg, I would
>> appreciate your telling me which property owner was cheated
>> as I wish to return to the rightful owner either the
>> meteorite, or a sum of money equal to it's value.
>>
>> Greg, I would also ask that you tell me, OL if you wish,
>> whom you believe was the other thief. I want to correct any
>> dealings I may have had with him too.
>>
>> Count Deiro
>> IMCA 3536
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Greg Catterton <star_wars_collector at yahoo.com>
>>> Sent: May 8, 2011 1:07 AM
>>> To: Shawn Alan <photophlow at yahoo.com>,
>> jasonutas at gmail.com,
>> Linton Rohr <lintonius at earthlink.net>
>>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>>>
>>> Ok. I cant keep this quite anymore... Screw the lies
>> and secrets. I think the truth should be out there.
>>> About Joes "awesome" stone...
>>>
>>> He told me personally and we also talked over email
>> about it... he found it on the same persons property that
>> someone else had already stolen a stone from.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know this because he told me directly. No second
>> hand BS.
>>>
>>> He lied to everyone and even had a totally BS story
>> published about his finding it under a bridge.
>>>
>>> So please, before anyone else goes to say how Joe fed
>> his family, took a trip to disney world and what not, he
>> lied about finding it and thats the true story behind the
>> "Kerchner Stone"
>>> Yes, his family ate, but what about the person whos
>> land it fell on? Ask her how her family trip to disney
>> went...
>>>
>>> Joe, sorry man, but it had to come out at some time.
>>>
>>> I took public one person who stole material from
>> Mifflin, anyone else care to out the other? I dont know the
>> whole story, so I will let others tell that tale. I know
>> many on this list know of Joes lie and also the other
>> person... but I honestly doubt ANYONE will come forward on
>> this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg Catterton
>>> www.wanderingstarmeteorites.com
>>> IMCA member 4682
>>> On Ebay: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/wanderingstarmeteorites
>>> On Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/WanderingStarMeteorites
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 5/8/11, Linton Rohr <lintonius at earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Linton Rohr <lintonius at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>>>> To: "Shawn Alan" <photophlow at yahoo.com>,
>> jasonutas at gmail.com
>>>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 3:29 AM
>>>> Ahoy there, Jason, Shawn and list.
>>>> Intriguing situation, Jason. Thanks for
>> sharing.
>>>> And like you Shawn, I'm glad I got my beautiful
>> little
>>>> slice from Joe. I didn't see all that much "drama"
>> in it,
>>>> though. He put in a lot of work, and found enough
>> to be able
>>>> to both keep some and sell enough to feed his
>> family. That's
>>>> just plain cool, in my book. Thanks Joe!
>>>> Linton
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Alan"
>> <photophlow at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: <jasonutas at gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:38 PM
>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jason and Listers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a very interesting post in the since I
>> have to say
>>>> something doesn't add up. One an anonymous finder
>> contacts
>>>> Carl and has him send cash to a PO box..... Red
>> flag. Two
>>>> the phone number is disconnected..... Three the
>> transaction
>>>> was done in cash. I have to say with those three
>> elements
>>>> this would have to be a scam, someone got had. If
>> this was a
>>>> legit sale wouldn't it have been done in the
>> correct ways
>>>> via pay pal not some undercover 007 style, sending
>> cash in
>>>> the mail to a PO BOX?
>>>>
>>>> As for testing goes, cant Carl Agee do a
>> terrestrial age
>>>> analysis and also have a cre done which can prove
>> or
>>>> disprove this theory that someone is suggesting
>> that Mifflin
>>>> has two litholgies, which I have to say isnt the
>> case and
>>>> that these stones are not related to Mifflin in
>> anyway from
>>>> the evidence presented by Jason.
>>>>
>>>> Now the question is who was the scammer. I have to
>> assume
>>>> that one this scammer knew what they were doing
>> and somehow
>>>> was or is connected to the meteorite collecting
>> world or
>>>> they are really smart and picked up how to scam
>> meteorite
>>>> hunter 101. First of all they knew of Carl, two
>> they knew of
>>>> the fall, three, they knew of what a freshly
>> fallen
>>>> meteorite looks like and four the meteorite in
>> question is a
>>>> real meteorite but not from the same fall.
>>>>
>>>> I think the scammer is one of us or is connected
>> to one of
>>>> us just because of the circumstances of the event
>> and that
>>>> the meteorite is a real meteorite and has fusion
>> crust. If
>>>> it was a non meteoritest, I think it would have
>> been a
>>>> stone, but this was not the case it was a real
>> meteorite in
>>>> the mists of being a fake Mifflin. This is to good
>> to be
>>>> done by some non meteorite collector but again
>> people are
>>>> getting smarter these days to make some cash. But
>> this means
>>>> that this scammer would have to buy a real
>> meteorite to turn
>>>> around to sell as a fake recent meteorite fall.
>>>>
>>>> All I can say is if I came into this situation I
>> would have
>>>> thought the sale would have been a scam right from
>> the start
>>>> with me sending money to a PO box. Also I am glad
>> I didn't
>>>> buy this stuff I was able to buy some from Joe
>> Kerchner
>>>> which that had some drama in its self as well.
>>>>
>>>> My 2 cents
>>>>
>>>> Shawn Alan
>>>> IMCA 1633
>>>> eBaystore
>>>> http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
>>>> jason utas jasonutas at gmail.com
>>>> Sat May 7 21:12:16 EDT 2011
>>>>
>>>> Previous message: [meteorite-list] Where is
>> everyone?
>>>> Facebook?
>>>> Next message: [meteorite-list] Mifflin, Amiss
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>> ] [
>>>> author ]
>>>>
>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> My story begins in the summer of last year. I saw
>> some
>>>> strange pieces
>>>> of 'Mifflin' on ebay that I thought looked funny.
>> People
>>>> were talking
>>>> about the meteorite having two lithologies,
>> but...the
>>>> slices and
>>>> individuals that I saw looked 'off.' A select few
>> looked
>>>> like
>>>> H-chondrites, and they had the telltale signs of
>> wear that
>>>> freshly-imported Moroccan falls bear: worn edges,
>> exposed
>>>> metal flakes
>>>> on protruding corners (where the fusion crust had
>> been worn
>>>> off due to
>>>> improper packing), etc.
>>>>
>>>> At the time, I did nothing but send a private
>> email to Anne
>>>> Black
>>>> notifying her of my suspicions. I spoke with some
>> other
>>>> prominent
>>>> list-members addressing it, and they all agreed
>> that the
>>>> material
>>>> looked funny, but that nothing could be done about
>> it given
>>>> the
>>>> required burden of proof.
>>>>
>>>> So, I sat on my hands for several months.
>>>>
>>>> Just over a month ago, I saw a piece of the
>> funny-looking
>>>> 'Mifflin' on
>>>> ebay. It looked similar to some pieces that I
>> remembered
>>>> seeing on
>>>> ebay months before, and, being an end-cut, I was
>> able to
>>>> see both the
>>>> stone's funny-looking inside -- and the apparent
>> metal
>>>> grains on the
>>>> stone's exterior.
>>>>
>>>> I used the 'buy-it-now' option to purchase the
>> end-cut, and
>>>> it
>>>> arrived while Peter and I were in Morocco. When
>> we
>>>> returned, I
>>>> promptly shipped the end-cut off to Tony Irving of
>> the
>>>> University of
>>>> Washington; he agreed to analyze the stone
>> posthaste.
>>>>
>>>> The results came back, but Tony wanted to wait
>> until the
>>>> probe was
>>>> recallibrated so that he could run it again to be
>> sure.
>>>>
>>>> Lo and behold, he did confirm that my end-cut was
>> an
>>>> equilibrated
>>>> H-chondrite, with an olivine Fa of 18.6. For
>> comparison,
>>>> Chergach and
>>>> Bassikounou both have Fa contents of 18.4 and
>> 18.6,
>>>> respectively.
>>>>
>>>> University of Madison, Wisconsin performed most of
>> the work
>>>> on the
>>>> Mifflin fall. Between them and the Field Museum,
>> over
>>>> twenty separate
>>>> stones were analyzed. They were all L5. Mifflin
>> is
>>>> classified as an
>>>> L5, with an Fa of ~24.9 +/- 0.2.
>>>>
>>>> I then sent Tony the link to the ebay auction so
>> he could
>>>> confirm that
>>>> the piece that he had analyzed was indeed the
>> piece that I
>>>> had sent
>>>> him. He did.
>>>>
>>>> I purchased my end-cut from Bryan Scarborough
>> (IMCA), who
>>>> purchased it
>>>> from Michael Cottingham, who purchased it from
>> Greg
>>>> Catterton (IMCA),
>>>> who purchased the stone with Carl Esparza from the
>> finder.
>>>>
>>>> Carl told me the following story over the phone:
>>>> He was contacted "out of the blue" by someone
>> hunting in
>>>> the Mifflin
>>>> strewn-field. According to Carl, the finder stated
>> that he
>>>> thought
>>>> there was a "conspiracy against him," because no
>> one would
>>>> offer him
>>>> more than $5/g. and he believed his finds were
>> worth more
>>>> than that.
>>>> So, according to Carl, he then offered the finder
>> $10/g,
>>>> and a deal was
>>>> struck.
>>>>
>>>> But...the finder asked that he not be paid via
>> paypal or
>>>> wire
>>>> transfer; he wanted cash mailed to a P.O. Box.
>>>>
>>>> So, Carl mailed the money to the P.O. Box and the
>> first of
>>>> two 'Mifflin'
>>>> stones was over-nighted to him the next day. It
>> should be
>>>> noted that
>>>> Carl included Greg Catterton as his partner in
>> this deal,
>>>> and Greg
>>>> sent over several hundred dollars to help pay for
>> the
>>>> stones.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, as Carl said over the phone, his
>> old
>>>> computer recently
>>>> died, so he lacks the name and email address of
>> the finder,
>>>> as well as
>>>> the number/address of the P.O. Box to which he
>> sent the
>>>> money. Carl
>>>> is also unwilling to share the bank receipt from
>> the
>>>> transaction which
>>>> would prove that he did make a large cash
>> withdrawal for
>>>> the stones.
>>>> I asked Carl for the finder's phone number, but he
>> told me
>>>> that he had
>>>> recently tried to call the finder, himself, only
>> to find
>>>> that the
>>>> number had been disconnected.
>>>> He was unwilling to share the number with me,
>> regardless.
>>>>
>>>> On the phone, Carl suggested that his source had
>> likely
>>>> ripped him
>>>> off, and he said that he believed that it was the
>> reason
>>>> why he had
>>>> been asked to send the money untraceably, as he
>> did; Carl
>>>> described
>>>> the situation as a "typical scam."
>>>>
>>>> He also suggested that the stones *might* be from
>> an
>>>> unrelated fall -- or could be the result of
>> Mifflin being an
>>>> 'Almahata Sitta sort of
>>>> fall.'
>>>>
>>>> I can't disprove either of those ideas, but they
>> are
>>>> unlikely for the
>>>> following reasons:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Almahata Sitta is a unique event in the history
>> of
>>>> meteoritics.
>>>> Different lithologies have been observed in many
>>>> meteorites, but to
>>>> have individual stones of completely different
>> and
>>>> unrelated meteorite
>>>> types falling separately is unique. Out of the
>> 1,238
>>>> accepted
>>>> observed falls in the meteoritical bulletin, only
>> one has
>>>> exhibited
>>>> individuals that have consisted of different
>> meteorite
>>>> types (for
>>>> example, H + L, Ureilite + EH, etc).
>>>>
>>>> And it's not that we haven't been looking for
>> similar
>>>> events; with
>>>> each and every fall, multiple stones are analyzed,
>> and the
>>>> simple fact
>>>> of the matter is that they are always
>> similar...with *one*
>>>> exception.
>>>>
>>>> So, Almahata Sitta is an exception. How much of
>> an
>>>> exception? 0.08%
>>>> of meteorite falls are like it. Less than a tenth
>> of a
>>>> percent.
>>>> Possible...but extremely unlikely. We also have to
>> wonder
>>>> about why
>>>> or how this hunter managed to find the only two
>> H's from
>>>> the fall that
>>>> were recognized. Over twenty other stones were
>> studied and
>>>> this
>>>> finder supposedly turned up two or three that were
>> all H's.
>>>> It's 'funny.'
>>>>
>>>> The other possibility that Carl advocated is that
>> the
>>>> stones may actually
>>>> have been found in Wisconsin -- and they may be
>> part of a
>>>> new fall that
>>>> somehow slipped under the radar. He initially
>> suggested
>>>> that they were
>>>> from the fireball widely seen across the Midwest
>> on May
>>>> 10th, but, at the
>>>> time, I had paypal records from Greg that stated
>> that he
>>>> had sent Carl the
>>>> money for the stones as early as April 24th.
>>>> So we ruled out that possibility..
>>>>
>>>> But, I agree; the stones could theoretically have
>> come from
>>>> a
>>>> different fall. The end-cut that I bought showed
>> no visible
>>>> signs of
>>>> weathering. No oxide, no anything. Given the
>> weather in and
>>>> around
>>>> Mifflin at the time of the fall, we can assume
>> that the
>>>> stones were
>>>> picked up within a week or so of having fallen. No
>> AMS
>>>> reports of
>>>> anything in the region for the given timeframe
>> doesn't
>>>> disprove
>>>> anything since meteorites often fall without much
>> ado,
>>>> but...two falls
>>>> in the same place *at the same time?*
>>>> Granted, it's possible. Not very likely, though.
>>>>
>>>> And you've still got to wonder about why no one
>> else found
>>>> any
>>>> H-chondrites while looking for Mifflin. It's not
>> like
>>>> meteorites were
>>>> laying thickly on the ground. Everyone who found
>> stones out
>>>> there put
>>>> considerable time into hunting -- and they all
>> found only
>>>> L5's. So if
>>>> Carl's source were telling the truth, and he did
>> find the
>>>> stones, it
>>>> seems best to assume that he wasn't hunting in the
>> Mifflin
>>>> strewn-field, because, if he were, he would 1)
>> probably
>>>> have found
>>>> L5's, and 2) other people would probably have
>> found H's as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> The conclusion I draw from this is that the truth
>> has
>>>> become
>>>> well-hidden. What is certain is that I have been
>> refunded
>>>> by
>>>> Bryan, and I know for a fact that Bryan has been
>> refunded
>>>> by
>>>> Michael Cottingham, who has in turn been refunded
>> by Greg
>>>> Catterton.
>>>>
>>>> What I have heard, however, is that Carl has been
>> defending
>>>> the
>>>> legitimacy of his stones, and is refusing to
>> refund Greg
>>>> Catterton.
>>>>
>>>> Regardless of whether the material is Mifflin or
>> another
>>>> meteorite
>>>> (from Wisconsin or from NWA -- it doesn't matter),
>> the
>>>> simple fact
>>>> of the matter is that the material sold by Carl
>> has been
>>>> shown to be
>>>> different from how it was advertised, and as such,
>> he
>>>> should be
>>>> willing to accept its return for a refund. If he
>> wishes to
>>>> get it
>>>> analyzed and sell it to others as a new meteorite,
>> that is
>>>> his
>>>> concern.
>>>>
>>>> I am fairly certain that Bryan, Michael, and Greg
>>>> unknowingly sold the
>>>> material as Mifflin, believing that it was indeed
>> what they
>>>> sold it
>>>> as.
>>>>
>>>> That is my 2 cents.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jason Utas
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
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Received on Sun 08 May 2011 10:22:45 AM PDT